I'm saying people have progressed and become better, more understanding human beings. I wouldn't say it was a shitty thing to say, just honest; people grow.ophelia wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:20 pmThat's a pretty shitty thing to say- especially if someone is coming back from a hiatus that's longer than most people have actually been playing.
BUT
I think it's abundantly clear how the writing business goes/is to be done and that's a great thing going forward should someone else pop out of oblivion to poke around a bit. If it's not explicitly marked open- then inquire about joining.
I also recommend folks join the writing group. Great resource to meet people and hopefully spark some writing enthusiasm, engage with folks you might not otherwise on an IC (writing level) and all that cool jazz! <3
Ravana: an explanation
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Ember
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:54 pm
- OOC: Flower
- IGN: Ember Argent
- Lineage: Beefcake
- Graphic Artist: Self
I don't think that people have necessarily gotten more mannered over the years; I think that the style of writing for RBC, in general, has morphed from what it once was, not just because of the age of this place and those of us who have been writing here for tons of years but because of the inception of forums such as this. Forum writing is and always has been a little different than straight free form, unless the forums explicitly state that it's an open free-for-all sort of place... in which case, have at it!
That being said, if you look at the whole at this forum (in the RP sections especially), you can see there is a lot of solo work and closed threads for specific groups instead of open threads. Why? I think people use it as background filler to things that happen in private on discord, as a way to record a character's history, as a way to journal what the character is thinking, and so on. It's not so much live action as it used to be because of the way things have morphed over the years. Is it a detriment? Yes and no. Yes because interactions are so much more closed down than they were before, even in the chats, and it can sometimes stunt growth of a place/character if people aren't willing or comfortable to step out of their comfort zones. No, because writers don't have to deal with the problems that come with crossing and godmodding and other situational hazards that come with roleplay writing.
I won't lie and say I don't miss the sort of open threading that used to happen on other boards, but a lot of that time has come and gone for this place; it is what it is. Now, you just have to reach out a little more before jumping in feet first, which isn't exactly a detriment. You can pick people's brain's apart OOC and really see if they're someone you want to write with, that will advance your storylines and characters, and give you things to work off.
The non-label of threads just sort of became an unwritten rule. Both sides have a point, both are well made, but the pissing match and turn of tone in this thread isn't becoming at all. If someone who has been gone a long time comes back and just randomly jumps into threads without realizing the changes, it's more helpful if members who are active most recently actually politely tell them the changes; likewise, if someone has been gone a long time and comes back and is told about those changes after making the mistake, it is better to take what's become of the place and try not to argue it back to what it once was.
Most people here are open to threading, myself included. A simple message does wonders nowadays.
That being said, if you look at the whole at this forum (in the RP sections especially), you can see there is a lot of solo work and closed threads for specific groups instead of open threads. Why? I think people use it as background filler to things that happen in private on discord, as a way to record a character's history, as a way to journal what the character is thinking, and so on. It's not so much live action as it used to be because of the way things have morphed over the years. Is it a detriment? Yes and no. Yes because interactions are so much more closed down than they were before, even in the chats, and it can sometimes stunt growth of a place/character if people aren't willing or comfortable to step out of their comfort zones. No, because writers don't have to deal with the problems that come with crossing and godmodding and other situational hazards that come with roleplay writing.
I won't lie and say I don't miss the sort of open threading that used to happen on other boards, but a lot of that time has come and gone for this place; it is what it is. Now, you just have to reach out a little more before jumping in feet first, which isn't exactly a detriment. You can pick people's brain's apart OOC and really see if they're someone you want to write with, that will advance your storylines and characters, and give you things to work off.
The non-label of threads just sort of became an unwritten rule. Both sides have a point, both are well made, but the pissing match and turn of tone in this thread isn't becoming at all. If someone who has been gone a long time comes back and just randomly jumps into threads without realizing the changes, it's more helpful if members who are active most recently actually politely tell them the changes; likewise, if someone has been gone a long time and comes back and is told about those changes after making the mistake, it is better to take what's become of the place and try not to argue it back to what it once was.
Most people here are open to threading, myself included. A simple message does wonders nowadays.
Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift.
It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift.
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ladypeacek
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:49 am
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- IGN: ladypeacek
I would actually disagree quite a bit that things have 'grown' or gotten better - and manners have emerged. Frankly, the ONLY reason people did not 'ask permission' as they may do now- has zero to do with the people and their manners- it has to do with the style of the place we are writing- the forum. Please stop assuming your generation of writers are somehow better people than the older generations- that's how you create more divide. Considering the amount of hate displayed to writers is at its peak in this game now- and we did not have that all when I started- I would seriously reflect on where the lack of manners resides.
In earlier days- it was a basic yahoo board where there was no division of forums and such- when you started a thread- you were IN the bar and only in the bar and you opened yourself up to all the interaction, no differently than if you walked into chats. So it was so very rare to see a 'solo' role play. It was expected that other people could and would come into the bar- at any given time. It gave us a way to write and interact that did not necessarily devolve into one liner insults- because it was long form- and things like tone, and aura of the place and time were available to writers to work with, rather than assuming.
Forums we have NOW- force the division. Discord, forces division. What Ravana was doing- was crossing those divides, that he did not know were there, because he has fortunately missed the division that has taken place over the years. Technology changed, not people.
While I do write with the current expectations as well- not jumping into RPs I am not invited into- I would not have an issue with someone taking part. Unfortunately- most role plays are written so far after the event has taken place, that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for someone to jump in- as the results of whatever the story is- have already been acknowledged.
I did try to change it back to the old ways- but it was made pretty clear to me here- that the current players of this game, prefer the divide that we have.
Good to see you writing again, Matt. @ Ravana. Hopefully this will not dissuade you.
In earlier days- it was a basic yahoo board where there was no division of forums and such- when you started a thread- you were IN the bar and only in the bar and you opened yourself up to all the interaction, no differently than if you walked into chats. So it was so very rare to see a 'solo' role play. It was expected that other people could and would come into the bar- at any given time. It gave us a way to write and interact that did not necessarily devolve into one liner insults- because it was long form- and things like tone, and aura of the place and time were available to writers to work with, rather than assuming.
Forums we have NOW- force the division. Discord, forces division. What Ravana was doing- was crossing those divides, that he did not know were there, because he has fortunately missed the division that has taken place over the years. Technology changed, not people.
While I do write with the current expectations as well- not jumping into RPs I am not invited into- I would not have an issue with someone taking part. Unfortunately- most role plays are written so far after the event has taken place, that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for someone to jump in- as the results of whatever the story is- have already been acknowledged.
I did try to change it back to the old ways- but it was made pretty clear to me here- that the current players of this game, prefer the divide that we have.
Good to see you writing again, Matt. @ Ravana. Hopefully this will not dissuade you.
I am an older generation of writer. I'm not saying only the new generation of writers have manners, I'm saying that I believed everyone has developed themselves and grown as people over the years.ladypeacek wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:29 pmI would actually disagree quite a bit that things have 'grown' or gotten better - and manners have emerged. Frankly, the ONLY reason people did not 'ask permission' as they may do now- has zero to do with the people and their manners- it has to do with the style of the place we are writing- the forum. Please stop assuming your generation of writers are somehow better people than the older generations- that's how you create more divide. Considering the amount of hate displayed to writers is at its peak in this game now- and we did not have that all when I started- I would seriously reflect on where the lack of manners resides.
In earlier days- it was a basic yahoo board where there was no division of forums and such- when you started a thread- you were IN the bar and only in the bar and you opened yourself up to all the interaction, no differently than if you walked into chats. So it was so very rare to see a 'solo' role play. It was expected that other people could and would come into the bar- at any given time. It gave us a way to write and interact that did not necessarily devolve into one liner insults- because it was long form- and things like tone, and aura of the place and time were available to writers to work with, rather than assuming.
Forums we have NOW- force the division. Discord, forces division. What Ravana was doing- was crossing those divides, that he did not know were there, because he has fortunately missed the division that has taken place over the years. Technology changed, not people.
While I do write with the current expectations as well- not jumping into RPs I am not invited into- I would not have an issue with someone taking part. Unfortunately- most role plays are written so far after the event has taken place, that it wouldn't make a lot of sense for someone to jump in- as the results of whatever the story is- have already been acknowledged.
I did try to change it back to the old ways- but it was made pretty clear to me here- that the current players of this game, prefer the divide that we have.
Good to see you writing again, Matt. @ Ravana. Hopefully this will not dissuade you.
In the years I've been writing I know for a fact that at least my perspective on how I treat others has grown? I was a kid when I started writing in this game, as most of us were. I've grown up and I've learned how to respect other people.
That's legitimately all I was saying with that.
The rest is down to a difference of opinion.
I feel the need to step in and explain why this thread is here and what happened.
Because I don't believe that any of this happened due to old ways vs new ways. What happened is that I've been writing 'That's Not Funny' for almost two years now. The thread has long been considered solo, and Ravana posted in it.
I reached out to the writer personally to ask the post be removed and explained the nature of the thread, and that I would be happy to continue the dialogue started there in a new thread that was separate.
I was told no. I was told that the character was a dick, and if I didn't like it- I could create a new thread.
I explained that I had no qualms with the character, and just wanted the post removed for the purposes of the story I was telling. It's not designed to be an open piece.
I was again told no. I was told a lot of things, and frankly felt attacked as a writer.
When Admin removed the post at my request, this thread sprang up. The "years long soliloquy" is continuously thrown around to bite at me for explaining how long my piece had been in progress when asking the writer to remove their post.
The issue here is NOT old vs new. It's a matter of respecting writers and working together to create something great. Things have grown out of context and have been left ambiguous on purpose, probably so I wouldn't have to go through the humiliation of explaining the situation.
If you have questions I'm happy to answer them.
Because I don't believe that any of this happened due to old ways vs new ways. What happened is that I've been writing 'That's Not Funny' for almost two years now. The thread has long been considered solo, and Ravana posted in it.
I reached out to the writer personally to ask the post be removed and explained the nature of the thread, and that I would be happy to continue the dialogue started there in a new thread that was separate.
I was told no. I was told that the character was a dick, and if I didn't like it- I could create a new thread.
I explained that I had no qualms with the character, and just wanted the post removed for the purposes of the story I was telling. It's not designed to be an open piece.
I was again told no. I was told a lot of things, and frankly felt attacked as a writer.
When Admin removed the post at my request, this thread sprang up. The "years long soliloquy" is continuously thrown around to bite at me for explaining how long my piece had been in progress when asking the writer to remove their post.
The issue here is NOT old vs new. It's a matter of respecting writers and working together to create something great. Things have grown out of context and have been left ambiguous on purpose, probably so I wouldn't have to go through the humiliation of explaining the situation.
If you have questions I'm happy to answer them.
cause you are, the only one
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ladypeacek
- Posts: 357
- Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:49 am
- OOC: Kenna
- IGN: ladypeacek
I don't believe you have any reason to be embarrassed about the situation. It really is, however, a difference in the forum set up and expectations of how role play is done between now vs then...as the rp you are doing isn't something we had ever seen here until these forums started.
Until now it was very traditional that every RP was marked. It made it easy for writers to spot stories they could potentially jump into, in order to meet other characters. Now, you have to read every single one to find out if it's even something you could ask about joining, and well, that is time consuming, especially when you don't have writing partners currently and are hoping to write now...rather than spend days reading every RP to find one.
New players and writers really have no 'in' anywhere. This game is so divided and players do very much stick to small groups.
Until now it was very traditional that every RP was marked. It made it easy for writers to spot stories they could potentially jump into, in order to meet other characters. Now, you have to read every single one to find out if it's even something you could ask about joining, and well, that is time consuming, especially when you don't have writing partners currently and are hoping to write now...rather than spend days reading every RP to find one.
New players and writers really have no 'in' anywhere. This game is so divided and players do very much stick to small groups.
I don't disagree, but what I pointed out when I tried to explain all this privately was that it didn't make sense to my piece or the way I'd been writing. I didn't want to go from second person to third, and I reached out.ladypeacek wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:01 pmI don't believe you have any reason to be embarrassed about the situation. It really is, however, a difference in the forum set up and expectations of how role play is done between now vs then...as the rp you are doing isn't something we had ever seen here until these forums started.
Until now it was very traditional that every RP was marked. It made it easy for writers to spot stories they could potentially jump into, in order to meet other characters. Now, you have to read every single one to find out if it's even something you could ask about joining, and well, that is time consuming, especially when you don't have writing partners currently and are hoping to write now...rather than spend days reading every RP to find one.
New players and writers really have no 'in' anywhere. This game is so divided and players do very much stick to small groups.
It's also worth noting that the way times have changed was explained prior to reaching out to Admin, and ever effort to compromise was made.
But I think that's the takeaway, here. I reached out and I offered solutions and was happy to write elsewhere, and was shot down. I didn't shoot a new player down, and I wasn't trying to make them feel outcasted. I said a new thread could be started and we could invite more people in. I offered the chat as a roleplay place to more immediately impact other characters and writers.
I was told that I didn't have a choice about how my thread and writing were treated because it was tradition.
Things change and times have, but I've been in this community for over seven years now and this is a first. I've never had a problem reaching out until this time, and I understand it's hard to respond to a thread and then be asked to move it. But I would never, ever tell another writer "though luck" or "if you don't like it, don't respond". I even saved their post in case they didn't. I was prepared to help in any way.
We're trying to close those divides and gaps, but this whole event was, for me, horrifying. I think these events divide us further than time.
cause you are, the only one
The point is more that the writer got confronted about it and asked to delete it and refused. It's not a difference in forum set up so much as it's a difference in the person not wanting to respect someone elses request. Initially, sure, different era, mistakes will be made and it can be confusing. No ones jumping at him for that. Whatever. But the second you get someone saying 'hey this is private and something just for my char, can you take that down and we'll interact in a different way' and get an outright no? And constant no at that. That's just a writer being disrespectful for the sake of their art, which is how all of this comes off to me as. Someone trying to be the writer version of Banksy. In a place that doesn't need shaken up like it's some corrupt government. In my opinion, we can sit here arguing about the ins and outs on the old ways vs the new ways and go around in circles for days but it isn't about that. It's basic respect, something that was ignored and then turned into this because simply saying 'Oh my bad, I'm sorry, I'm not used to this.' was too hard, and rather than compromise and find a way that it was enjoyable to both parties, they just decided to say 'lmao this is just what my char does tho'. No. You're still the writer and still responsible. You're still an adult who can admit fault and find people who are completely cool with that happening.
My stance is particularly strong here because I've seen enough pride shit to know; That's not an excuse for being shitty about it.
There's what your characters do/their archtype/personality and then there's you as the writer. Some folk won't agree, and that's fine, that then means you've found your niche who also believe what you do. Not everyone does. That doesn't mean anyone is better than anyone else. It means just respect other god damn writers who don't share the same views as you. Simply put, it's your job as the writer to communicate with other writers once a mistake has been made. There's still plenty others wanting to write with his characters type, so long as there is communication before hand, and that isn't a confusing or offensive request. People have lives. They get stressed. They aren't here to make statements. They're here to enjoy themselves, and if it's too much hassle to respect the fact that people have grown up from the hormonal kids they used to be to functioning adults that might want an escape through writing then... I don't know what to tell you. But that's why we ask each other to join. Because maybe someone wants to write horror, and torture, but you don't. There's a very simple fix to not knowing; talking to each other.
He can write whatever he wishes, but at the end of the day, he's still the writer and he still refused to respect someone elses wishes after being asked more than once. You can still respect another writers privacy and request for it and write a character that doesn't.
I hope he does stick around and writes with the folks who've expressed interest. This isn't an attempt to chase someone off. I'm just saying we're not a bunch of kids in high school. There's people breaking off into groups for a reason. Mine, currently, is for my own mental health. For others it's different or the same. Sorry if that's an inconvenience for you.
TLDR: Just don't be fucking rude. It's a writing community. If I don't like someone? I ignore them and don't write with them. If their style doesn't fit mine, same thing. But going to someone and saying they don't have a choice? Nope.
My stance is particularly strong here because I've seen enough pride shit to know; That's not an excuse for being shitty about it.
There's what your characters do/their archtype/personality and then there's you as the writer. Some folk won't agree, and that's fine, that then means you've found your niche who also believe what you do. Not everyone does. That doesn't mean anyone is better than anyone else. It means just respect other god damn writers who don't share the same views as you. Simply put, it's your job as the writer to communicate with other writers once a mistake has been made. There's still plenty others wanting to write with his characters type, so long as there is communication before hand, and that isn't a confusing or offensive request. People have lives. They get stressed. They aren't here to make statements. They're here to enjoy themselves, and if it's too much hassle to respect the fact that people have grown up from the hormonal kids they used to be to functioning adults that might want an escape through writing then... I don't know what to tell you. But that's why we ask each other to join. Because maybe someone wants to write horror, and torture, but you don't. There's a very simple fix to not knowing; talking to each other.
He can write whatever he wishes, but at the end of the day, he's still the writer and he still refused to respect someone elses wishes after being asked more than once. You can still respect another writers privacy and request for it and write a character that doesn't.
I hope he does stick around and writes with the folks who've expressed interest. This isn't an attempt to chase someone off. I'm just saying we're not a bunch of kids in high school. There's people breaking off into groups for a reason. Mine, currently, is for my own mental health. For others it's different or the same. Sorry if that's an inconvenience for you.
TLDR: Just don't be fucking rude. It's a writing community. If I don't like someone? I ignore them and don't write with them. If their style doesn't fit mine, same thing. But going to someone and saying they don't have a choice? Nope.
Ronin | Donut | SOUTH | Sonny | Whiskers
Snitches get Stitches.
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ladypeacek
- Posts: 357
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- IGN: ladypeacek
Well, my response was more geared at the comments that as writers we got manners- and have grown and I didn't agree considering the amount of hate in this game compared to the lack of it back then. Without having those particular details, there was really no other response most of us could have about the situation.
Up until the offensive remarks about the manners it seemed to be a healthy discussion on ways to bridge some divide in writing, in general, which is always good. I know handfuls that love to write that are either too nervous to ask, or in my situation where it is made clear, just not wanted in the game.
If people want there to be less divide overall..changes need to be made. It could be as simple as some of the brave writers to make 'open' threads or simply making a forum where it does run a continuous thread that's always open for people to come in and out of like Yahoo boards worked.
So I am sorry you felt attacked, that's not cool either. But some good can come from it if it opens a wider communication between people.
Up until the offensive remarks about the manners it seemed to be a healthy discussion on ways to bridge some divide in writing, in general, which is always good. I know handfuls that love to write that are either too nervous to ask, or in my situation where it is made clear, just not wanted in the game.
If people want there to be less divide overall..changes need to be made. It could be as simple as some of the brave writers to make 'open' threads or simply making a forum where it does run a continuous thread that's always open for people to come in and out of like Yahoo boards worked.
So I am sorry you felt attacked, that's not cool either. But some good can come from it if it opens a wider communication between people.
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Ember
- Posts: 606
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Disclaimer: I was asked to post this on behalf of Alessio, since he doesn't want to bump Alex's posts from 1000 because Alex would mentally kick his nuts if he did. I've already posted my personal thoughts on the matter and won't really be actively participating in the discussion anymore. THIS IS STRICTLY A COPY/PASTE ON BEHALF OF SOMEONE ASKING FOR A FAVOR. Thank you!
-Per Alessio-
Two things:
1. I think that when someone who is new to the community (or returning to it from a LONG hiatus, when things were much different than they are now) comes to the board and makes a suggestion, it's worth taking a look at what they're asking, how much effort it would take to act on said request, and reflect on how seeing this board from the perspective of someone who hasn't been part of this "community" for 10+ years might look. I think just writing off the request as saying "Nope, sorry. This is how we've always done it, we here who have been doing it get it, don't see why we should change or add to the rules for a newcomer/old timer that's returning after 10+ years who doesn’t get it" makes this "community" look extremely exclusive and unwelcoming.
In other RP forums, threads are considered open unless specified otherwise. Someone coming here from elsewhere would not know it to be common courtesy to ask before joining a thread that isn’t labeled solo, and I could even see why someone who is RPing for the first would show up to an RPing thread and expect that people are RPing together, not defaulting to solo RPs. So I think if adding a rule that says "Please be aware that unless stated otherwise, all threads are considered closed. Threads with the OPEN tag are the only ones that are "open" and threads that state character names are closed to anyone other than those characters. Thank you!" (you can copy and paste that if it’s too much effort to write out) is all it takes to clarify things to newcomers/returning old timers, it's a step worth taking.
2. While we're talking about asking the writers for permission for things, it's interesting that we draw the line here. Why are people then allowed to trash talk other characters in their journals without asking the writer of said characters if they can use their intellectual property in their piece first? I'm aware that's not what all the journals do. I’m also aware that a few years ago I was a pretty big offender of this. But I was wrong to do it then, and still think it’s wrong to do it today.
If the journals were ACTUALLY private, it would be a different story. But they aren't. And that whole disclaimer "This is all OOC knowledge" is frankly bull shit. I've watched people lie about my characters and things they've said, and I just have to be okay with that. And I get it, we aren't our characters.
But some people have been writing the same character for more than a decade. I get it that it's not me in the car accident. But I sure as fuck would be sad if I watched my friend of basically my entire life get into a car accident.
And that's really cool if it's writing that's emotional and well written and beautifully crafted. It's not cool when you're just talking shit to talk shit and that hurts somebody.
So if we’re talking adding to rules, and the unspoken rule (thus, a rule a newcomer could never know) of asking writers for permission, I think it’s worth extending the use of characters that aren’t yours in your RPs to the discussion.
-Per Alessio-
Two things:
1. I think that when someone who is new to the community (or returning to it from a LONG hiatus, when things were much different than they are now) comes to the board and makes a suggestion, it's worth taking a look at what they're asking, how much effort it would take to act on said request, and reflect on how seeing this board from the perspective of someone who hasn't been part of this "community" for 10+ years might look. I think just writing off the request as saying "Nope, sorry. This is how we've always done it, we here who have been doing it get it, don't see why we should change or add to the rules for a newcomer/old timer that's returning after 10+ years who doesn’t get it" makes this "community" look extremely exclusive and unwelcoming.
In other RP forums, threads are considered open unless specified otherwise. Someone coming here from elsewhere would not know it to be common courtesy to ask before joining a thread that isn’t labeled solo, and I could even see why someone who is RPing for the first would show up to an RPing thread and expect that people are RPing together, not defaulting to solo RPs. So I think if adding a rule that says "Please be aware that unless stated otherwise, all threads are considered closed. Threads with the OPEN tag are the only ones that are "open" and threads that state character names are closed to anyone other than those characters. Thank you!" (you can copy and paste that if it’s too much effort to write out) is all it takes to clarify things to newcomers/returning old timers, it's a step worth taking.
2. While we're talking about asking the writers for permission for things, it's interesting that we draw the line here. Why are people then allowed to trash talk other characters in their journals without asking the writer of said characters if they can use their intellectual property in their piece first? I'm aware that's not what all the journals do. I’m also aware that a few years ago I was a pretty big offender of this. But I was wrong to do it then, and still think it’s wrong to do it today.
If the journals were ACTUALLY private, it would be a different story. But they aren't. And that whole disclaimer "This is all OOC knowledge" is frankly bull shit. I've watched people lie about my characters and things they've said, and I just have to be okay with that. And I get it, we aren't our characters.
But some people have been writing the same character for more than a decade. I get it that it's not me in the car accident. But I sure as fuck would be sad if I watched my friend of basically my entire life get into a car accident.
And that's really cool if it's writing that's emotional and well written and beautifully crafted. It's not cool when you're just talking shit to talk shit and that hurts somebody.
So if we’re talking adding to rules, and the unspoken rule (thus, a rule a newcomer could never know) of asking writers for permission, I think it’s worth extending the use of characters that aren’t yours in your RPs to the discussion.
Someone I loved once gave me a box full of darkness.
It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift.
It took me years to understand that this, too, was a gift.