Journals

[Grim]

I'm stating you have nothing better to do than twist my words.
I'm not stating that you have nothing better to do than try and help the community.
You are, again, twisting my words.
Hello troll.

It was not clear that you were stating that I have nothing better to do than twist your words. You quoted what I said and removed it all and put "stuff", then your first sentence was "You have nothing better to do, do you?" so I thought you were saying that I have nothing better to do than sit here and post "stuff".

I don't think that necessarily negates anything I said, because I was still doing those things. And I still don't think any of that stuff is better than presenting this issue and having a discussion about it.

And, again, I'm going to make the assumption that accusing me of twisting your words, even though I, once again, was not, and calling me a troll, was not done to be rude. Even though, from my perspective, it's both rude, and seemingly deliberately so at this point. If you would please stop accusing me of twisting your words, I would appreciate it.

I am not trying to be nefarious in anything I am doing, or troll. I am just trying to be as clear and straight forward as possible about my beliefs on this issue.


Thank you.

Funny how you're avoiding all of the positive things she wrote. And by the way, you were actually twisting her words. I'd quote you but frankly I don't have the time and you go back and forth so much it purposefully gets lost so you can point to another thing you said that contradicts exactly what you just said.

This is me defending my girlfriend. Try listening to the actual points she's bringing up, instead of waiting until you read one little part you don't like to quote it.

Edited to add: People, if you have problems ooc about crossing and all that: Go to your admin or mod. They CANNOT help you if you say nothing. We can go around and around but all this basically stems from is crossing. No amount of long paragraphs will change that. It's crossing. Which is already a rule. If you want this sorted, go to admins. Otherwise, it'll keep happening.

[Alex Ayres]

And enforcing this rule isn't very difficult at all,I don't think.Enforcing the rule is receiving a message from Player A: "Hey, Player B had Character X say some shitty things (I am oversimplifying it as saying "shitty things", I've already discussed what I actually mean by "shitty things") about Character Y and didn't discuss it with me first."

You go to player B: "Hey, did you discuss that stuff Character X said about Character Y with Player A first?"
Player B: "No."
You: "Okay, edit it or it will be deleted."

Except no one does come forward. This is what I'm trying to bloody tell you.
How can I enforce it if no one will tell me about it?
If no one tells me about it, I'd HAVE to go knocking on peoples doors.
Yet you're also saying 'of course people don't want to come forward'
And then you say people coming forward is the solution.
Then you say that asking people to come forward is 'tone deaf'

Can you make up your mind?

The rule isn't in place for them to come forward and tell you about it. How can they come forward and tell you someone is breaking a rule that doesn't exist?

I know there are rules against crossing. But crossing is not something that can easily be monitored. How does someone prove an event didn't happen? How does someone prove they didn't say what that person said they said? How does someone prove that the post on Discord that was posted that says "Edited" next to it was edited 3 months later so as to make the conversation look like it went the way they said it did in that screen shot they're posting?

People can come forward and tell you that X person broke the rule that states they have to have a conversation with a player before posting something negative about their character. And if the person did have that conversation, there would be evidence of the conversation. And if there's evidence of the conversation, it doesn't matter if the person said "NO YOU ABSO-FUCKING-LUTELY CAN NOT SAY NEGATIVE SHIT ABOUT ALEX!" because that's not what the rule is. The rule is talk to them. Let them know you are about to do it.

Not only would this rule help cut down on people posting toxic OOC targeted solo RPs and journal entries, it would help people talk to new players, maybe possibly mend divides if people have to talk to people they haven't talked to in years to work out a plot or story line thing.

And, I will say it again. I understand that you do not want to implement this rule, and that is fine. But if you're going to attack me, and say things that show there may be a misunderstanding in what I am suggesting, I am going to clarify it.

I'm not trying to force this on anyone. I don't want it to be my way. In the end, we are a community, however fractured, and if most of the people who are vocalizing their opinions on this say "no" it is what it is.

But it's in my nature to clarify and to make sure that everyone is being understood for what they're actually saying. So if I keep posting, it's not me trying to get things to be my way, it's to make sure that I am being understood for what I am actually proposing, and why I feel it is an urgent issue.

[Alex Ayres]

Funny how you're avoiding all of the positive things she wrote.

Funny that you're saying this right after she quoted me as saying "stuff" and "more stuff" and literally said she wasn't going to pick out every little thing I said...which is exactly what I did except I was just quoting and focusing on the thing that I was responding to, to make sure it was clear.

I'm not here to have an argument about what anyone's intentions are, and honestly, as evidenced by one of my posts, no one's words are being twisted in this conversation more than mine are (at least from my perspective).

The difference being I'm not going to come out and accuse someone of twisting my words, because then I'm just creating a negative interaction intentionally.

I don't know what the intentions are of the people who are saying I said things that I didn't say and making it seem like I said them. Maybe they don't have very good reading comprehension, maybe they are just confused. So instead of accusing them, I am just going to clarify what I said.

Which is why, Church's player said, I repeat myself, and say the same thing differently. Because it is clear that what I said wasn't being understood so I tried to say the same thing using different words to make it more clear.

[Church]

Good lord.

2. Crossing is not your friend.
For any roleplay to be successful, a player must learn to distinguish between In Character (IC) and Out of Character (OOC) situations. If you are posting within the IC threads, then keep in mind that you are posting as your character and not yourself. By the same token, if you are posting within the OOC threads, then you are posting as yourself and not your character. Information that you have learned OOC must not be brought IC. Your character needs to learn the information on its own.
If you feel that someone is crossing please contact an admin, so that we can then look into the issue and resolve it fairly.

The board has been separated into sections that are labeled whether they are IC or OOC. Please keep your posts appropriate according to the section you are writing in. Ultimately, it boils down to this: Your life is your life and your character's life is something else entirely. Keep them separate, as they belong. Keep your character's lives separate from each other as well if you choose to play multiples.

[Alex Ayres]

Good lord.

2. Crossing is not your friend.
For any roleplay to be successful, a player must learn to distinguish between In Character (IC) and Out of Character (OOC) situations. If you are posting within the IC threads, then keep in mind that you are posting as your character and not yourself. By the same token, if you are posting within the OOC threads, then you are posting as yourself and not your character. Information that you have learned OOC must not be brought IC. Your character needs to learn the information on its own.
If you feel that someone is crossing please contact an admin, so that we can then look into the issue and resolve it fairly.

The board has been separated into sections that are labeled whether they are IC or OOC. Please keep your posts appropriate according to the section you are writing in. Ultimately, it boils down to this: Your life is your life and your character's life is something else entirely. Keep them separate, as they belong. Keep your character's lives separate from each other as well if you choose to play multiples.

Instead of repeating myself, I'll just quote the thing I said before that already covers the thing you're bringing up.

I know there are rules against crossing. But crossing is not something that can easily be monitored. How does someone prove an event didn't happen? How does someone prove they didn't say what that person said they said? How does someone prove that the post on Discord that was posted that says "Edited" next to it was edited 3 months later so as to make the conversation look like it went the way they said it did in that screen shot they're posting?

[Church]

Good lord.

2. Crossing is not your friend.
For any roleplay to be successful, a player must learn to distinguish between In Character (IC) and Out of Character (OOC) situations. If you are posting within the IC threads, then keep in mind that you are posting as your character and not yourself. By the same token, if you are posting within the OOC threads, then you are posting as yourself and not your character. Information that you have learned OOC must not be brought IC. Your character needs to learn the information on its own.
If you feel that someone is crossing please contact an admin, so that we can then look into the issue and resolve it fairly.

The board has been separated into sections that are labeled whether they are IC or OOC. Please keep your posts appropriate according to the section you are writing in. Ultimately, it boils down to this: Your life is your life and your character's life is something else entirely. Keep them separate, as they belong. Keep your character's lives separate from each other as well if you choose to play multiples.

Instead of repeating myself, I'll just quote the thing I said before that already covers the thing you're bringing up.

I know there are rules against crossing. But crossing is not something that can easily be monitored. How does someone prove an event didn't happen? How does someone prove they didn't say what that person said they said? How does someone prove that the post on Discord that was posted that says "Edited" next to it was edited 3 months later so as to make the conversation look like it went the way they said it did in that screen shot they're posting?

I'll do the same.

2. Crossing is not your friend.
For any roleplay to be successful, a player must learn to distinguish between In Character (IC) and Out of Character (OOC) situations. If you are posting within the IC threads, then keep in mind that you are posting as your character and not yourself. By the same token, if you are posting within the OOC threads, then you are posting as yourself and not your character. Information that you have learned OOC must not be brought IC. Your character needs to learn the information on its own.
If you feel that someone is crossing please contact an admin, so that we can then look into the issue and resolve it fairly.

The board has been separated into sections that are labeled whether they are IC or OOC. Please keep your posts appropriate according to the section you are writing in. Ultimately, it boils down to this: Your life is your life and your character's life is something else entirely. Keep them separate, as they belong. Keep your character's lives separate from each other as well if you choose to play multiples.

Because we're going to have to look into it either way, Alessio. To resolve any issue we need to look into it.
If there's no immediate evidence? We look into it.

[Alex Ayres]

I'll do the same.

2. Crossing is not your friend.
For any roleplay to be successful, a player must learn to distinguish between In Character (IC) and Out of Character (OOC) situations. If you are posting within the IC threads, then keep in mind that you are posting as your character and not yourself. By the same token, if you are posting within the OOC threads, then you are posting as yourself and not your character. Information that you have learned OOC must not be brought IC. Your character needs to learn the information on its own.
If you feel that someone is crossing please contact an admin, so that we can then look into the issue and resolve it fairly.

The board has been separated into sections that are labeled whether they are IC or OOC. Please keep your posts appropriate according to the section you are writing in. Ultimately, it boils down to this: Your life is your life and your character's life is something else entirely. Keep them separate, as they belong. Keep your character's lives separate from each other as well if you choose to play multiples.

[/quote]

Okay. That didn't work. I'll try rephrasing.


How can someone come to an admin about an act of crossing if they can't prove that the act of crossing happened because the said act of crossing was the person creating an event that their character was never a part of, or a bit of dialogue that their characters had, that never actually happened? What can even be done about that?

You can't prove something didn't happen, and there are a trillion ways you can lie about no longer having the records of that thing happening (It was on Trillian, it was in the chats and i didn't log it, etc. etc.).


I'm realizing this is actually closer to god modding than crossing. But I think God modding is kind of crossing?


ETA: I think maybe you added the stuff under the quote? Because I didn't edit anything after the quote, just the stuff before to keep it clean. If it was always there, my fault. I won't delete this, because I still think the question is valid and worth considering.

[Grim]

You want your quotes? Okay.

So nitpicking means to look at small or unimportant problems to criticize someone unnecessarily.

None of the issues that I have brought up, in my opinion are "small" or "unimportant" and any criticism that I've made of the community was not done "unnecessarily."

If it is your opinion that the issues that I've presented are "small" or "unimportant" well then there isn't a way to find common ground on this. And if that's your opinion, I again, feel that that says a lot about how much you actually are considering the well being of members of this community.

Basically, twisting everything she just said into being about that one word, and the definition of it, like she doesn't know what the word means. Condescending. And basically saying she is not taking it seriously. Making it "small" and "unimportant", like what she's doing is brushing all of this off.

As someone who knows the rules, and knows what is classed as what - Tex is an admin. So what you're bringing up is classed as crossing in journals. I repeat, THIS IS ALL CLASSED AS CROSSING, ALESSIO, then you're exhausting the point and purposefully making her look bad. Spinning off of one word you didn't like. Nitpicking.

The nitpicking is addressing every little solution she's giving you, and every little thing she says that you quote to take into this long winded, confusing mess.

You specifically gave a reason as to why you didn't think it should be a rule: Because it was too hard for you to enforce.

It is to hard with a small admin team. This is once again twisting to make it look like she thinks it's too much work. She's explained why it is too much work and why it's a difficult rule to implement. Yet you persist.

I explained, in detail, how you were mixing up enforcing with monitoring and how, in practice, enforcing the rule would be very easy.

What you're asking the small admin team to do is monitor everyone's work. Adults work and can't monitor everything, things will slip by and then people will complain the admins aren't doing shit. And why do you think they don't see things? They have lives. And no one brings the issues forward. Which we've been saying all throughout the thread to come to admins. And literally all over the forums. But no one does. The issue isn't the rule, it isn't what you're exhaustingly going on about. It's that people on this forum simply refuse to go to the admins. Moving on.

Your response is just "Still think it would be easier for someone to just come forward."

You write to make yourself look good then break everything an admin writes down to "It's just be easier." Twisting. She's stated multiple times in this thread and everywhere on the forums what will help the community.

Don't bitch at her for people not listening.

Honestly, I think that response is tone deaf to the reality of the community that this is and how people are treated in it.

You go on to flip flop your opinion about people coming forward and continually twist your meaning, hiding it in long posts.

This was just the start of when you started arguing. Solutions have been put forward, suggestions. They're there for people to read.

Drop it.

Let other people speak and don't take little words into a dictionary definition to spitfire your points.

A good point made?

I think what Tex is trying to get at is that they understand this is a problem and they want to help, but the issue has to be presented to Admin for them to be able to take action. There is too much writing and posting coming in each day for them to be able to read everything, and there's no way that the small Admin team would be able to know what's real or false if they're not involved in the lives of the characters being lied about.

This means that the moderation aspect that you're asking for is incredibly difficult to promise.

If multiple people are having an issue with one person, or a small group of people, they need to speak up. I say this as a manager. They cannot fix a problem that they have not been told is happening. If it's happening from specific individuals to multiple people, then action can be considered or taken. But if you just vaguely hint at it here in this thread- they still can't do anything. Tell them. Or tell a 3rd party you trust to have the conversation for you. There's a wealth of support for people OOC if only you use it.

I"m upset /for/ all of you that this is happening, but I also think you all need to sit down and explain it to someone who can take action so it can be addressed.

So basically, Alessio? People care. But you're pressing in the most annoying way and making folk look bad by bolding your flip-floppy quotes all over the place.

You've raised a good issue. It's being talked about. Now let others speak.

[Greyce]

Okay. That didn't work. I'll try rephrasing.


How can someone come to an admin about an act of crossing if they can't prove that the act of crossing happened because the said act of crossing was the person creating an event that their character was never a part of, or a bit of dialogue that their characters had, that never actually happened? What can even be done about that?

You can't prove something didn't happen, and there are a trillion ways you can lie about no longer having the records of that thing happening (It was on Trillian, it was in the chats and i didn't log it, etc. etc.).


I'm realizing this is actually closer to god modding than crossing. But I think God modding is kind of crossing?

I think it would depend on the platform this happened on, and I think the people in question should HAVE to state which platform.

Discord? They can show the timestamps of the messages. If the side who says it didn't happen can produce evidence, and the side who says it did can't, or said evidence is doctored, then the matter can be clearly settled.

If it happened in the chats, I think they'll need to see if they have access to screenshots or logs. If they were writing around other characters, they can reach out to those writers as character witnesses.

If it happened nowhere and is stated to be entirely fabricated, then neither side has evidence. This should mean it would be a stalemate and at the discretion of the Admin how to proceed.

[Church]

Just a quote so you don't miss this

Is it? I don't know, I think God modding is just... bad writing, not crossing?
I don't honestly know.

As for the rest what I'm trying to say is even with your rule in place it'd still need proof for anything to be done.
Proof a lot of people won't have.
Your rule wouldn't make a difference, is what I believe.
I could agree to someone writing my char in their journal post, then when I realise what they've written change my answer. Or they just didn't get the proof. I could photoshop my answer if I wanted to, so could anyone else. Someone else could photoshop THEIR answer. The thing about the internet and screenshots as evidence is.. it's impossible to tell what's been edited or not if they're good at what they do. Changing words and time stamps is easy.
What I'm trying to say is, with your rule or without it, we would still need to look into the issue before we could do anything at all, just to make sure we're being fair about it, and even then there's no guarantee it could be resolved at all.

I'm honestly tired as hell of this topic, now. Exasperated, definitely.
And yeah, I added the bit at the bottom a bit later. My bad.