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[Ember]

But you did call him out, very specifically, didn't you? What does it matter if you're only talking about the language used or the actions, themselves?

You didn't exactly write a covert opinion piece that didn't point any specific fingers. I believe Marias was just as cruel as Stryker was, but you somehow didn't include Marias' opinion.

'Oh No'

I didn't think that I needed multiple examples of the behavior to make my point, so I just picked the one that was most obviously offensive from that thread when I finally got around to reading it. Otherwise, I would have went to Josephine, Pulse, and Kamala's threads and picked out all of the examples from those as well if I wanted all of the most recent examples of the behavior.

Very easily, I could be one of those examples. So let me just say this:

There's usually a reason why people say the things they do, whether it's in an obituary or elsewhere.

You might not understand it if you don't know the origins of the comment, or you may not even agree with it because of your belief system. Okay, fine. Sometimes there are things that need to be said, and while not inherently cruel, they just... are. I don't know how to explain better that words are just that: words. And we have a right to say them. Opinions are highly unpopular because they are just that: opinions. Nobody is going to see completely and cleanly, eye to eye; it's one of those things you either deal with or you let consume you. Or, in some cases, try to change. Likely you will fail, because most people aren't willing to change, but that's just my opinion.

At this point, you'd have been better off quoting each and every one of us who was "wrong". And then we'd all have a story to tell if you were listening.

[Charlie]

I'm just going to address the things you said that I didn't already clarify, multiple times.

You really didn't have to address any of it, at all.

I didn't think that I needed multiple examples of the behavior to make my point, so I just picked the one that was most obviously offensive from that thread when I finally got around to reading it. Otherwise, I would have went to Josephine, Pulse, and Kamala's threads and picked out all of the examples from those as well if I wanted all of the most recent examples of the behavior.

Having only one example presented of the behavior isn't very thorough. Multiple examples are important in social studies. It also has the negative consequence of making people feel singled out, as we've seen.

No. Just pointing out that this post isn't a culmination of my activities. And when I've had discussions with people about my view of what helping is, they've been perplexed. If you'd like to have the discussion we most certainly can.

There's nothing I like more than a good, long talk.

Agreed. And I believe I both took the blame and apologized for my part in this miscommunication. If not, I'm doing so (I think again) now.

I was trying to agree with you by stating how I felt about that. I wasn't looking for you to apologize. In fact, I'd really rather you didn't. Give the bastards something to shoot at, I always say.

I've refocused your bold to clarify my meaning.

Thank you. I'll retract.

I don't think stating your opinion of me or Alise in a public forum entitled "Soapboxes" is wrong at all. In fact, I'm astounded, honored, and humbled that someone would take the time to give such an exhaustive response to something I said. I'm sure a lot of people appreciate you taking the time to tear me a new one and saying all of the things they were thinking.

It's an opinion. It can't be wrong, can it? If I said, 'I like blue,' and you said, 'I don't like blue,' we'd both be right, wouldn't we?

I didn't realize I'd torn you a new one and I couldn't give any less of a fuck what a lot of people were quietly thinking and not expressing or what a lot of people appreciate.

But that could be the gin talking.

[Vex]

Just pointing out that this post isn't a culmination of my activities.

This is exactly where your understanding of life here collapses in on itself magnificently. Every post you make is a culmination of everything you've said and done in the past, provided you haven't made some big changes. And you haven't.

Anything you say is going to be judged in light of things you've said and done in the past. That's how shit works. You don't exist in a void, you finger pointy little cretin.

[Alex Ayres]

But you did call him out, very specifically, didn't you? What does it matter if you're only talking about the language used or the actions, themselves?

You didn't exactly write a covert opinion piece that didn't point any specific fingers. I believe Marias was just as cruel as Stryker was, but you somehow didn't include Marias' opinion.

I didn't think that I needed multiple examples of the behavior to make my point, so I just picked the one that was most obviously offensive from that thread when I finally got around to reading it. Otherwise, I would have went to Josephine, Pulse, and Kamala's threads and picked out all of the examples from those as well if I wanted all of the most recent examples of the behavior.

Very easily, I could be one of those examples. So let me just say this:

There's usually a reason why people say the things they do, whether it's in an obituary or elsewhere.

You might not understand it if you don't know the origins of the comment, or you may not even agree with it because of your belief system. Okay, fine. Sometimes there are things that need to be said, and while not inherently cruel, they just... are. I don't know how to explain better that words are just that: words. And we have a right to say them. Opinions are highly unpopular because they are just that: opinions. Nobody is going to see completely and cleanly, eye to eye; it's one of those things you either deal with or you let consume you. Or, in some cases, try to change. Likely you will fail, because most people aren't willing to change, but that's just my opinion.

At this point, you'd have been better off quoting each and every one of us who was "wrong". And then we'd all have a story to tell if you were listening.

I think this might help bring us closer to the point I was trying to make.

I am not saying that how you feel, or how anyone, feels about the things that were done to them by these people who have passed is wrong. I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel the way you (general you) do.

I'm saying that if we remove ourselves from the equation, and try to consider the impact of such statements on the community as a whole, that the impact is a net negative.

The people you are saying this mean spirited thing to aren't around to see what you are saying. Do you know who is? People who may have and do love those people. People who you may have never spoken to, people you may not even know exist. You are potentially negatively impacting those people, and for what? To tell a tombstone you're glad the person 6 feet under is gone?

Despite what everyone seems to think they know, I am not that person when it comes to Alise. Before Alise even severed me, I blocked her from all communication. I even set a rule in my Ab Antiquo inbox so that any message sent to me by Alise was automatically deleted so that I did not have a chance to get drawn back in. As much as Stryker and Charlie, I know what Alise was capable of, from the perspective of someone who was once romantically interested in her and from the perspective of someone who sired her and tried to help correct her course.

In this particular case, the person who I was thinking of was Tate. One of the last people in this city who may have seen Alise in a positive light, and how reading all of these things may have affected him. In the case of Josephine and Pulse, their childer. In the case of Janus, whatever friends he may have had before burying himself.

This city is dying. It isn't what it once was. It isn't the glorious wars that I've been reading about lately. We're a group of supernatural elderly people, walking around an assisted living play ground smacking each other across the head with our canes and walkers.

While we all may live forever, a city that has no actual form of government, no real form of upkeep, will not.

And in its final years, while people spend their times trying to recapture a bit of the light that is slowly flickering out, by throwing vials and staking hearts, can we at least respect the people who the dead left behind, and consider how our words might affect them?

I realize that this is what my initial post should have said. But in my head, it was clear that this was what I was trying to say in two sentences. Which, in retrospect, is absolutely ludicrous, and I know that this isn't the first time that I've done this. I will try and be more clear the first go around moving forward as to what the point is of what I'm saying.

[Alex Ayres]

I'm just going to address the things you said that I didn't already clarify, multiple times.

You really didn't have to address any of it, at all.

Agreed. You just took the time to type all of that out so I felt like I should. And, I wanted to clarify a few things because it was becoming evident that what I had initially said was not coming through clearly.

I didn't think that I needed multiple examples of the behavior to make my point, so I just picked the one that was most obviously offensive from that thread when I finally got around to reading it. Otherwise, I would have went to Josephine, Pulse, and Kamala's threads and picked out all of the examples from those as well if I wanted all of the most recent examples of the behavior.

Having only one example presented of the behavior isn't very thorough. Multiple examples are important in social studies. It also has the negative consequence of making people feel singled out, as we've seen.

Yes, agreed. This was a mistake on my part, and going forward, I will be sure to use more than one example.

Agreed. And I believe I both took the blame and apologized for my part in this miscommunication. If not, I'm doing so (I think again) now.

I was trying to agree with you by stating how I felt about that. I wasn't looking for you to apologize. In fact, I'd really rather you didn't. Give the bastards something to shoot at, I always say.

I misread. Thank you for clarifying.

I don't think stating your opinion of me or Alise in a public forum entitled "Soapboxes" is wrong at all.

It's an opinion. It can't be wrong, can it? If I said, 'I like blue,' and you said, 'I don't like blue,' we'd both be right, wouldn't we?

I was focusing on the moral wrong or right, not the factual wrong or right. Either way, yes, you're right.

In fact, I'm astounded, honored, and humbled that someone would take the time to give such an exhaustive response to something I said. I'm sure a lot of people appreciate you taking the time to tear me a new one and saying all of the things they were thinking.

I didn't realize I'd torn you a new one and I couldn't give any less of a fuck what a lot of people were quietly thinking and not expressing or what a lot of people appreciate.

But that could be the gin talking.

Fair enough.

Enjoy your evening.

[Alex Ayres]

Just pointing out that this post isn't a culmination of my activities.

This is exactly where your understanding of life here collapses in on itself magnificently. Every post you make is a culmination of everything you've said and done in the past, provided you haven't made some big changes. And you haven't.

Anything you say is going to be judged in light of things you've said and done in the past. That's how shit works. You don't exist in a void, you finger pointy little cretin.

You're right, and I think the judgement passed on me is mostly fair. Don't think I'm a misogynist, though. That's the only judgement I disagree with.


Mostly, that whole part of that post was me being tired of people saying "you only know half the story..." "you don't know anything about the thing you're talking about..."

When those people don't know what I know about the story or the thing I'm talking about. I don't even understand how people think that's a valid argument to make. Are you in my head? Do you know everything that I know? Are you sure your loved ones haven't told me things? Are you sure I haven't already seen all the footage?

[Ember]

I didn't think that I needed multiple examples of the behavior to make my point, so I just picked the one that was most obviously offensive from that thread when I finally got around to reading it. Otherwise, I would have went to Josephine, Pulse, and Kamala's threads and picked out all of the examples from those as well if I wanted all of the most recent examples of the behavior.

Very easily, I could be one of those examples. So let me just say this:

There's usually a reason why people say the things they do, whether it's in an obituary or elsewhere.

You might not understand it if you don't know the origins of the comment, or you may not even agree with it because of your belief system. Okay, fine. Sometimes there are things that need to be said, and while not inherently cruel, they just... are. I don't know how to explain better that words are just that: words. And we have a right to say them. Opinions are highly unpopular because they are just that: opinions. Nobody is going to see completely and cleanly, eye to eye; it's one of those things you either deal with or you let consume you. Or, in some cases, try to change. Likely you will fail, because most people aren't willing to change, but that's just my opinion.

At this point, you'd have been better off quoting each and every one of us who was "wrong". And then we'd all have a story to tell if you were listening.

I think this might help bring us closer to the point I was trying to make.

I am not saying that how you feel, or how anyone, feels about the things that were done to them by these people who have passed is wrong. I'm not saying that you shouldn't feel the way you (general you) do.

I'm saying that if we remove ourselves from the equation, and try to consider the impact of such statements on the community as a whole, that the impact is a net negative.

The people you are saying this mean spirited things to aren't around to see what you are saying. Do you know who is? People who may have and do love those people. People who you may have never spoken to, people you may not even know exist. You are potentially negatively impacting those people, and for what? To tell a tombstone you're glad the person 6 feet under is gone?

Despite what everyone seems to think they know, I am not that person when it comes to Alise. Before Alise even severed me, I blocked her from all communication. I even set a rule in my Ab Antiquo inbox so that any message sent to me by Alise was automatically deleted so that I did not have a chance to get drawn back in. As much as Stryker and Charlie, I know what Alise was capable of, from the perspective of someone who was once romantically interested in her and from the perspective of someone who sired her and tried to help correct her course.

In this particular case, the person who I was thinking of was Tate. One of the last people in this city who may have seen Alise in a positive light, and how reading all of these things may have affected him. In the case of Josephine and Pulse, their childer. In the case of Janus, whatever friends he may have had before burying himself.

This city is dying. It isn't what it once was. It isn't the glorious wars that I've been reading about lately. We're a group of supernatural elderly people, walking around an assisted living play ground smacking each other across the head with our canes and walkers.

While we all may live forever, a city that has no actual form of government, no real form of upkeep, will not.

And in its final years, while people spend their times trying to recapture a bit of the light that is slowly flickering out, by throwing vials and staking hearts, can we at least respect the people who the dead left behind, and consider how our words might affect them?

I realize that this is what my initial post should have said. But in my head, it was clear that this was what I was trying to say in two sentences. Which, in retrospect, is absolutely ludicrous, and I know that this isn't the first time that I've done this. I will try and be more clear the first go around moving forward as to what the point is of what I'm saying.

This is where we differ in our beliefs that the impact is a net negative. I mean, people can either choose to let the words affect them negatively or they can go on with their life and ignore them; everything we have, everything we do, everything we say and feel... it's all a choice. In this city, you either have a thick skin or you don't. You either let things eat you alive or you don't.

As an example (and I use this as a long standing example because it's the only way I can best describe my first and consequently many years thereafter in this city): I can't tell you how many times that I was spoken to negatively about being sired into the Wilde lineage, how many times I saw and heard negative things said about Maji herself, other family members, about our family as a whole, about me for being where I was. What were my choices? Listen to what everyone was saying/telling me and sever, feel slighted and fight any and everyone who ever said anything negative, or smile in the faces of those who said those things and continue on with my life as I saw fit. Obviously, I continued on with my life as I saw fit. I stayed, I learned, I grew, I changed, I had a bunch of shit happen, a bunch of shit not happen, and so on.

That was my choice. Just like every single one of these people in this city have their own choice: to either let it affect them in a grossly negative manner or to move on with their lives. Not saying that they will not be sad or upset or otherwise affected, but if they are affected so negatively that it drives them crazy, it's of their choosing to be affected that way. I mean, I'm not perfect; I've let things affect me negatively in the past, so much so that there were times I wanted to bury myself. I don't doubt that there will be those who say negative things about me when I go; in fact, I expect it in this city. But should it affect my childer, sire, or those who were close to me so negatively that they go off the deep end? No. Because they know me as they know me, and that's what matters.

By that standard, Tate knew Alise as he knew Alise. Should it affect him negatively? No, not if he actually believes in who she was and ignores the naysayers. In the case of Pulse and Josephine's childer, their childer knew and adored them as they knew them. Should it affect them negatively? No, not if they truly believe in who they were instead of listening to the naysayers. Same goes for Janus, in the above mentioned pattern. Whether it's friends, lovers, sires, childer, enemies, etc., we all have opinions on the people we love and hate, and those opinions are likely to be unchanged unless something drastic comes to light and can be actively proven. (There seems to be something of a necessary burden of proof in this place, but that's another topic entirely.)

The community as a whole being impacted negatively? I still don't believe so. It's as it's always been, a little more dead lately, but you know... there's a rise and fall of the tide for every moon. I honestly doubt it's going to go through any great change any time soon. Many have just taken sleep for lengthy times, maybe even permanently, but then there are also those who have been asleep for a long time who are awakening so I don't see how that changes too much aside from old values being brought back to light from many years past.

Plus, you're speaking of potential negative outcomes or affects. Key word being potential. It's not assured, even when you remove people from the equation.

Also, don't disparage the cane, man. I happen to like my cane and hitting people with it, thanks. It's also fun to steal Lameth's and hit him with it when he's around. Gotta keep your heart light, you know?

[Alex Ayres]

This is where we differ in our beliefs that the impact is a net negative. I mean, people can either choose to let the words affect them negatively or they can go on with their life and ignore them; everything we have, everything we do, everything we say and feel... it's all a choice. In this city, you either have a thick skin or you don't. You either let things eat you alive or you don't.

This will create a circular discussion around choice and opinion, but I feel it necessary to point out that I do agree with you in most things being a choice. I don't think all emotion is a choice. For example, sometimes we fall in love with people and don't even know how it happened. We didn't choose them, and maybe they didn't choose us. But it happened.

In the same vein of your argument that everything is a choice, you made the choice to say something mean spirited. And only in making that choice, did you create the option for their loved ones to choose between being hurt and not being hurt.

And like I said, this is going to go back to opinion. This is how I feel about that behavior. They can choose to not be affected by our words, but we can also choose not to put them in the position where they have to make that choice. At the very least, on the obituary thread of their loved ones.

I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, but that's okay. I'm used to my opinions being the least accepted ones around here.


Thanks for your thoughts on it I always enjoy talking to you, Pookie.

[Ember]

This is where we differ in our beliefs that the impact is a net negative. I mean, people can either choose to let the words affect them negatively or they can go on with their life and ignore them; everything we have, everything we do, everything we say and feel... it's all a choice. In this city, you either have a thick skin or you don't. You either let things eat you alive or you don't.

This will create a circular discussion around choice and opinion, but I feel it necessary to point out that I do agree with you in most things being a choice. I don't think all emotion is a choice. For example, sometimes we fall in love with people and don't even know how it happened. We didn't choose them, and maybe they didn't choose us. But it happened.

In the same vein of your argument that everything is a choice, you made the choice to say something mean spirited. And only in making that choice, did you create the option for their loved ones to choose between being hurt and not being hurt.

And like I said, this is going to go back to opinion. This is how I feel about that behavior. They can choose to not be affected by our words, but we can also choose not to put them in the position where they have to make that choice. At the very least, on the obituary thread of their loved ones.

I don't think we'll come to an agreement on this, but that's okay. I'm used to my opinions being the least accepted ones around here.


Thanks for your thoughts on it I always enjoy talking to you, Pookie.

As I've always said, everything comes full circle in one way or another. We live on a round planet, after all. Round and round and round we can go.

In the same vein that my choice was mine, so was theirs, theirs. So is anybody's, anybody's. Not gonna say that it was mean spirited, just wishful thinking.

As always, it's been fun! We'll agree to disagree and move on with our circular lives.

[Amaya_Shannis]

Alex is still beating the dead horse?

No actual cows were harmed in the making of this gif..... And the CHP officer will be fine too