Ab Antiquo

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HOBOY. It's been a while. That's fine. Now you have all the words saved up, and good, because we're gonna need them. Our next debate is something that's been suggested as a topic by a number of citizens. Conversation has been minimal while judgement and gossiping has been plentiful. Well - out with it folks!

Should newer citizens, lacking in powers and city experience, be treated the same as any elders?

Yep. It’s a rude question. Rude, but also not as straightforward as some might say. The debate doesn’t rest in personhood, but rather where do they fit in appropriately. Should they be able to freely start new ventures, own/run establishments, start clans, marry/date fully powered elders, marry/date their teachers, partake in combat? Should there be a line, should there be exclusion and, if so, in what way?

Every opinion counts here.

I was wondering why you were reopening elders talk as I believed that to be closed.

Traditionally, new vampires to our city have not been treated equally. For some, they are protected by a clan or sire, for others they are beaten down. Typically it has depended upon their own actions. Are they instigating fights? Are they trying to learn and grow? Are they making connections?

For me, I was taught that you do not attack a fledging for their actions, you go to their sire or mentor. If that is not an option depending upon the severity of their transgression a warning attack or take them down.

In more recent years it has become seemingly acceptable to attack any in a line to punish the one who has wronged you whether or not they are powered or even conscious.

The short answer is no. New members of any organization (workplace, clan, family, social group) are not treated the same for a reason: they are learning. Junior staff members do not have the same responsibilities and privileges as senior staff. Rarely do these people have the experience and know-how to justify deviance from the established norm.

Are newer citizens lesser? No.

Everyone has the potential to be amazing provided that potential is fostered - James Locke is a lovely example of a newer citizen doing cool stuff. Compare him to Zigma circa 2018 who was a case study in what-not-to-do.

We absolutely have a problem with new people waltzing in thinking they're tough shit/know everything, and this has been compounded by sires protecting these people from the consequences of their actions instead of properly leading/guiding/mentoring/doing nothing other than coddling them. When Zigma was running around mouthing off and showing exactly how little he knew about anything a few years ago, he absolutely should not have been treated as equal with his elders - his behavior showcased a blatant lack of maturity and/or little want to be better. That doesn't deserve equality, that situation requires equity. Sometimes equity is a slap.

Equality is not fair to new citizens; equality means treating everyone the same - and somewhat assuming new citizens already have the same tools and knowledge as elders at their disposal. They don't. Equity is what is needed, whether that equity is positive reinforcement or curbing crap behavior.

Vex wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:25 pm

Equality is not fair to new citizens; equality means treating everyone the same - and somewhat assuming new citizens already have the same tools and knowledge as elders at their disposal. They don't. Equity is what is needed, whether that equity is positive reinforcement or curbing crap behavior.

I agree with this, and a lot of my opinion can stand with it, however for my own voice...

Should newer citizens, lacking in powers and city experience, be treated the same as any elders?
Yes.

People are people. Inflated egos and sense of self or worth aside this city loves to throw about, respect should always be given. This in turn, also goes to the people coming in with their own inflated sense of understanding of what goes bump in the night.

Respect me, and I will respect you.
Disrespect me, and we'll be having a chat*.

Trust is always something earned, however you shouldn't have to earn respect (unless as stated above, disrespect was already shown).
Common fucking decency, which many lack.

Now, someone new thinks they're big and wants to fight? Maybe if they don't have a clan/family/sire someone 'elderly' could see the reason to why.
If they have a reason that seems "just because" then sure, lets be responsible and try to stop them.

Someone wants to fight?
Try and make a clan?
Try and make an upstarting business?

Win/Succeed/overcome or learn from it.

Should newer citizens be treated the same as any elders:
In short, No.
We should still respect them as a person, but those of us who have been here for years are elders for a reason. There are levels of respect, "baby" or new vampires are the lowest level but still members of our society, at the top are the Elders who have invested years into creating themselves & this community. The babies have time to grow & find their place in our world, someday they may be elders themselves, but its a title that must be earned. I feel as elders it is our responsibility to take the time to teach. We can't just magically expect them to know & meet our expectations. We would do well to remember we were all once babies. Anything can be a teaching moment! And most issues have many sides, we should try to see them all.

I'm going to tackle the posted list one at a time;
Should they be able to freely start new ventures: Yes, why not? Its a great way to meet those already in the city.
own/run establishments: Eh, iffy. I think they need to spend time learning the city first.
start clans: No, this should be left to the fully powered. Joining a clan as a baby, oh yes. Join & learn!
marry/date fully powered elders: Generally no, but I feel this should be left up to the elder in question.
marry/date their teachers: Again generally no, but this should be more up to the teacher/school.
partake in combat?: No. I feel this should be left to those fully powered.
Should there be a line, should there be exclusion and, if so, in what way? So there are lines, some are fudgy lines, others should be drawn with a sharpie.

That's just my personal take one that whole can of worms!

Lady Crimson Shadowlight
Doncey's Devil
Jynx's Minx
Rexx's Koibito

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Arallara wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:37 am

I was wondering why you were reopening elders talk as I believed that to be closed.

Traditionally, ...

For me, I was taught ..

In more recent years it has become seemingly acceptable to attack any in a line to punish the one who has wronged you whether or not they are powered or even conscious.

I am hearing a lot of what has been expected of others and of you in regards to giving special treatment to those that are new. I'm not sure if you're saying if you think it should be this way or not. Are you pro treating them as equals or against?

Also, yes, sorry I had the title wrong for a moment there. All fixed!

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Vex wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:25 pm

The short answer is no.

Equality is not fair to new citizens; equality means treating everyone the same - and somewhat assuming new citizens already have the same tools and knowledge as elders at their disposal. They don't. Equity is what is needed, whether that equity is positive reinforcement or curbing crap behavior.

Way to use words that look similar so that I could stare stupidly for a few minutes until my brain caught up with yours. Not equal to, but fair to. Noted!

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Amari wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:07 pm

Should newer citizens, lacking in powers and city experience, be treated the same as any elders?
Yes.

...

Someone wants to fight?
Try and make a clan?
Try and make an upstarting business?

Win/Succeed/overcome or learn from it.

Another strong arguement, but for the side of the yeses.

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LadyCrimson wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:51 pm

Should newer citizens be treated the same as any elders:
In short, No.
We should still respect them as a person, but those of us who have been here for years are elders for a reason.

Another No! That's 2:1 for No's now, barring Arallara's clarification. I love that you came in with a detailed stance. Curious what makes it bad for a fully powered 'elder' to date someone undertrained? Asking for friend.

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This is an astounding no for me. I think the term “any” in the main question is the qualifier for me, as I will have much more respect and the willingness to mentor someone who has the motivation and drive to do something regardless of whether they’ve been here for 10 minutes or 10 years. This is also predicated on my thoughts regarding people who wish to be seen as elders when they’ve done nothing in the city except count the days and fuck everything they can find, as in my eyes, they are elder to nothing.

Now to hit this list and some of the other comments.

1 - Being given a basic amount of respect because you exist and being given respect for your accomplishments are two different things. I can respect the fact that someone exists yet still think they are useless and not deserving of any additional layer of respect or time from me.

2 - Being able to start new ventures? Absolutely. It doesn’t matter if it’s a clan, neutral organization, or social venue. All of them are useful in their own way to the fabric of the city, and if a new citizen has the motivation and the willingness to put in the work, they’re going to earn my respect for it and be treated differently than the random “elder” of the week screaming for attention because they happened to find this city first. If you fall into that elder category, I think you should take several seats until you realize that length of time earns you nothing.

3 - Joining a pre-existing clan or other group? Isn’t that the entire point if you’re trying to make something of yourself but don’t want to start your own thing? No shade from this corner for trying to better yourself.

4 - Date and marry fully powered elders? Why not, as long as the person isn’t just trying to tie you up into a perpetual game of house and taking your focus away from the things you’re interested in doing.

5 - Date and marry your teachers? I’m not going to fault a new citizen for wanting to date or marry their teacher. However, if you are teaching someone and have taken on the role of being this person’s mentor, I find it personally irresponsible to take advantage of that relationship to flip it into something sexual. If you realize you have those sorts of feels for your mentee, you are now compromised as a mentor and should do the responsible thing and find them another mentor as you engage in a romantic relationship. Trust me, I lived this life many years ago and it is almost impossible to be objective and guide a person towards their goals if you have a personal investment in keeping them close so you can keep fucking them.

6 - Partake in combat? Again, I cannot fault the new citizen for wanting to, but I’m going to heavily judge any leader who sends someone into combat unprepared, and if someone is still trying to navigate the powers, their attention is too split to receive any sort of adequate combat training.

7 - If a new citizen wants to come out of the gate with a giant ass mouth and talk shit when they don’t know what they don’t know, then the proper thing would be to whip their ass real quick so they can know at least a little something about the landscape of the city. I’ve seen it enough to know that a lot of the time, that quick beating is enough to make them see that they can be more than just a fledge with an over-sized mouth who is hanging onto the emotional high of their new found supernatural strength.

Since everyone is different and has different goals and motivations, then I think they should be treated as individuals rather than creating an “elders” versus “new citizen” set of categories. Case in point—James. Jay has already accomplished more in the short time he’s been here than 70% of the “elders” in this place. For those elders that want to stifle him solely because he’s new, why don’t you try getting off your asses and doing anything that doesn’t involve taking your pants off. It can be done. It’s been done.

I am APPALLED that there are people in this thread (Lady Crimson, I am looking at you) calling themselves ELDERS...and haven't done shit to deserve the title. Until you, ma'am, were seen threatening to chase down a NEW citizen, and strip him naked so you could see him in all his glory in a tavern, with his best friend sitting there, I had never even HEARD of you, and I get around...ask anyone. So excuse me as I laugh about your longevity in this city meaning you deserve more respect than anyone else.

What defines an elder makes a difference here. If it's simply "age" then it's absurd to think that someone coming to the city is somehow a noob in comparison anyways. These are not babies- they are fully grown-ass adults...some of them older than many current citizens by centuries! Ravenblack is not some city of Gods who live above the rest of the world. Jeez. Sure, they gotta get to know the city but half these bitches don't know anything about the city and they have been here for years. So why should someone new not deserve the same respect they offer others just because they are new here?

If it's based on wisdom you can share- well most of the people here have no more wisdom, experience, or real information than a gnat taking a shit and I have learned A LOT from new citizens- new perspectives that were beyond wise and comforting and given me whole new outlooks on who I am, and what I am doing and what I could be doing differently. In this case, I believe Elder vs Non-Elder is based on WHO they are and what they can share, and in the same token, I believe respect comes much in the same way.

Respect is based on so many different things and probably different for everyone- it has nothing to do with age, and most times age is simply incidental as older often means more experiences to share and their youthful rebellion has passed...so they are deserving of more respect as they now show more respect too.

I have a handful of new people that probably understand more about this city in months than some people here have learned in a decade.


ETA- As far as new citizens marrying, building, or anything else...if you have it, flaunt it- in business, romance and anything else because we NEED fresh, new, variety....in EVERY landscape here. Please!

As a useless elder, assuming we're basing that title on age, I say please god no, do not treat new people the same as me. Treat them better, for the love of any gods you may or may not believe in.

Should newer citizens, lacking in powers and city experience, be treated the same as any elders?

Yes. Everyone should be treated with respect at the very least (unless they are a Nazi-then you punch them a lot). Honestly, I don't believe powers makes someone an elder. I got my powers done in around 9-9 and a half months or so, and I would never claim to be an elder at that point. I wouldn't want to be either. Had I played that, 'I have all the powers cards, my word is final and law and I know better than you' card-woooooooooah boy. I think I would have been zeroed by now, as would some of my childre.

On the flip side-there have been those who have been here for a really long time or a vampire a really long time, that I don't know. That haven't contributed a lot to the community. Just because you are a one hundred or older supernatural creature, doesn't, in my mind, afford you the right to belittle newer people in the city (which happens a lot) or demand that your word is final and law mentality. I wouldn't respect them any less, but I would look at what they say critically, as I would with anyone-new or those considered old. Especially if they didn't know much about city dynamics, powers, wars, items in shops, guilds, etc.


Basic rule of life: Treat others how you want to be treated-unless they're continual jerks. Give people new chances, give old people chances too. Just look at what they say and do, critically. If they don't fit your niche, respectfully keep your distance and find a place/space/people that do.