Ab Antiquo

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Diversity is the spice of life and this city is full of flavor, but not all flavors go well together and that is OK. Much of this city’s divided nightlife ends up focused and flourishing within their own ways and territory. Sometimes a little space is all people need to appreciate one another.

Great successes have also come from collaboration when forces have combined for a common goal despite their differences. As the phrase goes, there is strength in numbers and we have bound together via families, clans, and groups for as long as we’ve existed.

We’ve seen the impact on this city when people can work well together. We’ve also seen the impact when people won’t work well together. The dream of a united city has long been the Holy Grail of idealism for many, but is the dream worth chasing?

Blame and jealousy make for finger pointing instead of problem solving, but is there a problem to solve or is that a carrot used in power struggles? Does avoiding mingling with those you don’t like work in favor of bringing peace or furthering division? Does it matter if we are all united as supernaturals or is it fine for everyone to do their own thing in their own spaces?


Every opinion counts here.

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**As a note, thank you to Vex for forming the topic and helping make the discussion!

((edited to add note, because I forgot))

Yes and no. It's all about perspective.

In the last few years, the city's various groups have taken to huddling within private halls frequented only by themselves and their friends. I hesitate to use the cliché, but echo chambers is an apt term.

Yes there are supposedly "communal" gathering spots, but we all know and don't talk about the fact that they're just the same thing with public faces. Which is no fault of the owners, mind you. Bravo to them for the attempt, but the masses do as the masses do and people will always shy away when they see a group of people they consider "other" than themselves.

Perhaps the best, real open venue I have seen in some years is the Saints of Salem - but of course if you dangle money, people will come.

This leaves the state of our city in an odd position. Yes, we have peace.

But what does Ravenblack City's particular brand of peace really mean?

Well, a few things. That groups rarely come together for a common purpose is one. That the echo chambers increase in intensity is another. One could argue there is innovation and even conflict despite all of this - but such conflicts are usually short lived and, without the benefit of fresh perspectives, new ventures generally fall flat on their faces. These are common problems though, and were such even before the current state of things.

The cost of peace that interests me far more is actually the lack of activity. There are always naysayers to the claim that the city is dying and our breed bordering extinction, but does the weight of it not feel real to us yet? Do the public taverns not sit quiet and hollow, trivia and game nights with far fewer faces than in years past, the creation of new bloodlines or clans becoming slower with each passing year? How many of our kind have we mourned the loss of?

Perhaps one day I shall collect some data, for the science of it, measuring the rise and fall of new groups over the years. Until then, I'm afraid, my evidence remains purely anecdotal and will fall upon many deaf ears.

It has been said for years by particular individuals that complacency breeds stagnation and that the womb of inaction is a sterile one. I am in agreement with this. You have your peace, Ravenblack City. Congratulations. But now that it is within your grasp, do you treasure it as you once the did the idea of it?

But to the question itself.

Is there a benefit of having common gathering places frequented by diverse groups?

This of course brings to mind the taverns of old, both moderated and not. Of times before we had magical wards preventing those with too low of blood or too few powers from entering. And what a time that was!

There was new blood daily within those bars. Some of value, some less so. There was also an underlying tension to every interaction: there were always eyes upon you, watching and waiting to spread rumor of your deeds or see plots and intrigue in every spoken word. More dramatic times certainly, but I would argue that immortals thrive off of such theater.

We could sit and watch for hours as various groups vied for social domination, a popular name calling in their reinforcements to solidify the tone of the eve only to be dethroned an hour later by someone louder and more charismatic. This was not only fun for its own sake, but it was also productive in two ways.

The first, in the underlying and never spoken of conflict. Egos were bruised, grudges made, alliances forged, and it all turned upon itself in a beautiful cycle that constantly encouraged activity and diversity. Who else remembers that massive game of Truth or Dare I led in which individuals were burned with holy water by people who had never before come together for denying a dare or lying? A controversial night, certainly. But did it not shift alliances? Create new bonds and strike down old ones?

The second: it demanded ingenuity and co-mingling. You always had to be at the top of your game. If you were off for just one night, you could become a laughing stock for months. But reign in that social jungle and you could wield the power of publicity, which I have always believed to be one of the most dangerous types of power (see: The Void and my unsponsored marketing campaign for them). You could find new blood, sway others to your side.

Most importantly of all though, we could sit down and fucking talk. If you had an idea, you could bounce it off the room and receive the benefit of a hundred different individuals critiquing your work. If you wanted to know something, the knowledge was there if you just asked. And by God, if you wanted a fight, you could go out and pick one without having to worry if the wrath of an entire clan would come down upon you and yours for it.

Now? Now we have... This. Halls where only those who agree with you are welcomed. Where there is no competition, because the ways things are is just absolutely fine, right? Ingenuity and creation are the children of conflict. New blood sparks only when the old is spilled.

There is a cost to everything.

The cost for peace is boredom and stagnation.
The cost for creation is conflict and drama.

Which are you willing to pay?

For me, the answer to this question is: yes. And we have suffered from a lack of such places. I am on the side of creation, as I always have been.

Liander has said everything I’ve thought about this topic but with far more eloquence. There should be places where diversity is welcome but it’s difficult to achieve.

For me, I still frequent the tavern. It’s the only truly neutral ground where I don’t feel like I need to walk on egg shells and, more importantly, where I can come and go as I please without a pocket full of jangling keys, fear of being recorded at every turn, or whispers that echo down the halls upon entry or exit.

For the few of us who don’t particularly belong anywhere, it becomes difficult to find places where one can even mildly let his or her guard down knowing that there is a difference between acceptance and tolerance.

I personally think both have purposes.

Speaking as someone who is (attempting at least) to make a communal area I think you need both the gathering spots and private areas.

Communal areas help shape the community and rebuild burnt bridges. Create exciting new stories. And also help bring spirit to the community as a whole.

But while people often throw out "This person only hangs out with their line" or "They're not even in the community they just hang with their clan", they forget that alot of those private areas are a safe place for members of the community who have been hurt by other citizens.

We need to change the mentality from "Oh they just dont like the community" to why are they not involving themselves in it.

What behaviors caused citizens to isolate, what factors in our community make them feel they cant be a part of the larger group.


But speaking bluntly as someone who is attempting to run a communal area, who has had people say they refuse to join because of fears that it is not actually neutral and owned by another individual.

I completley get the fear. And understand the rationale.

I think there should be more communal places, but it is imperative that they are fully transparent.
That they truly are open to the entire community. And that's a trust that is built with time, and a constant proving of actions. Not something just given.

There are so many benefits to having places that the entire community can frequent, but that's only part of the equation. We need to look at behaviors happening behind the scenes that make community members feel they need to retreat to more private areas.

Both serve very critical functions in this community and I think they should be celebrated in different ways.

Citizens not mingling with the community as a whole from my experience comes from abuse served to them by the community. And until that is addressed, all communal areas will be under scrutiny. And that's why they need to work that much harder to prove what they're about and their dedication to being for everyone.

A lot of folks rely on these "public but not open to everyone" areas to defend themselves from certain people, but still get to address the community. And until we do a better job of self policing communal areas, I'm not sure I can argue they arent neccessary.


And to respond to Liander's (really well written) post, and his comment about dangling money. Fair criticism, I will admit it is a way I try to invite others to give Saints a chance. But I hope that it is not why they stay.

Is there a benefit of having common gathering places frequented by diverse groups?

Short Answer: Yes.

Long Answer: But... We will go where we will feel comfortable.

There are those that wish to impose a 'particular' rhetoric upon people. "Be inclusive" or "Be nice" or .. "be polite" could be seen as "Be sheep" ; or.. as "Do as we 'the elite' say you should do" . I am not saying it -is- that way. I am saying it could be seen that way.

Some of us, do not wish to be sheep. Some of us do not wish to be told what to do by others.

We have our own minds. We do not need to be told what to do, or what to think. We have our mindset. We do not need to change it. We will go where we feel free to express it.

There's an awful lot to unpack here, to be honest. I'll just go in order.

The Op:

The dream of a united city has long been the Holy Grail of idealism for many, but is the dream worth chasing?

I think this is the point where the train already starts to go off the rails. Not everyone believes there should be a UNITED city. In fact, I don't even think the MAJORITY agrees with this. There may be some issues where being situationally united is necessary, but there are too many diverse beliefs and personalities here to expect any one entity to be able to adequately address them all. Anyone who thinks otherwise, frankly, is smoking the good drugs and I would like some as well, please.

Blame and jealousy make for finger pointing instead of problem solving, but is there a problem to solve or is that a carrot used in power struggles?

It's not just blame and jealousy. It's paranoia. It's ego. It's thin skin. It's the inability to do anything that is just kind and helps someone get a foothold without needing something in return. It's old beefs that aren't allowed to die. It's assumptions of what someone else is doing and acting on those assumptions rather than actually trying to figure out reality. It's pretending to be working for the good of the city while using people from other sides as a pretty marketing piece while you proverbially slap their face in private. None of these things are new and all of these things have been factors in the city politics for as long as I've been here and longer.

And quite frankly, it's fucking exhausting.

Does avoiding mingling with those you don’t like work in favor of bringing peace or furthering division?

Yes. To both. Especially when you're working with people who are only doing it for show.

Does it matter if we are all united as supernaturals or is it fine for everyone to do their own thing in their own spaces?

It's simply impossible to be 100% united as supernaturals. I'm not willing to sacrifice my ideals a united city.

Are you?

Is there a benefit of having common gathering places frequented by diverse groups?

Yes, as long as the expectation is not that this exists to the exclusion of private areas.


Liander:

Perhaps the best, real open venue I have seen in some years is the Saints of Salem - but of course if you dangle money, people will come.

The number of people who refuse to take the coin and ask for it to be rolled into other bounties/contests would surprise you.

You have your peace, Ravenblack City. Congratulations. But now that it is within your grasp, do you treasure it as you once the did the idea of it?

I've heard this argument over and over and it generally only comes from those who haven't been around with any consistency over the past few years. Giving people some time to just breathe and rebuild after the past several years is not the same thing as some peace utopia forever and ever. Those of you that skipped back into town as things were just dying down were absolutely met with a "you don't know what you don't know so just chill" message from the rest of us because you weren't there and you didn't need the break, right?

Oh wait, you were given time to build your group when you came back though, weren't you? You had your peace. Did you treasure that? Whether you like it or not, you and 7R are a case study on exactly why we all did what we did.

The cost for peace is boredom and stagnation.
The cost for creation is conflict and drama.

it's interesting that you pit peace and creation against one another as if they are inverse. They are not.

Shikon:

There are those that wish to impose a 'particular' rhetoric upon people. "Be inclusive" or "Be nice" or .. "be polite" could be seen as "Be sheep" ; or.. as "Do as we 'the elite' say you should do" . I am not saying it -is- that way. I am saying it could be seen that way.

I think people have imposed rhetoric since the city started and the definition of 'the elite' has changed over and over again as well. Just be unapologetically you and surround yourself by people who welcome that, and I don't think anyone can go wrong really.

P.S. It's nice to see the elderly finding their way to the internet, btw.

Shikon wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:10 pm

Is there a benefit of having common gathering places frequented by diverse groups?

Long Answer: But... We will go where we will feel comfortable.

There are those that wish to impose a 'particular' rhetoric upon people. "Be inclusive" or "Be nice" or .. "be polite" could be seen as "Be sheep" ; or.. as "Do as we 'the elite' say you should do" . I am not saying it -is- that way. I am saying it could be seen that way.

Some of us, do not wish to be sheep. Some of us do not wish to be told what to do by others.

We have our own minds. We do not need to be told what to do, or what to think. We have our mindset. We do not need to change it. We will go where we feel free to express it.

I really like what Shikon says here, it's inspired me to say something that, whilst it might seem contray to what she said, actually flows directly from it.

I have often thought that there are just not enough rules in this city!

And I do not mean rules that are enforced by an authority, or the elite, or 'under my roof you will do as I say' kind of rules.

Consider Ravenblack city like a game.

Games are supposed to be fun.

Games are supposed to be inclusive.

Games have a set system whereby winning and losing can be measured. This system is agreed upon by everyone who plays the game.

Without that set of rules to determine success or failure being first set down, and second accepted by everyone who wants to play, you just get chaos, arguments, and eventually people not wanting to play anymore.

Or going where, and playing with, the groups they feel comfortable with.

Which is what has happened in the city.

One example of a common agreement: the old two week rule.

It used to be commonly agreed that if you get zeroed you stay out of the public domain for two weeks.

This gives the winning party peacock rights for a fortnight, and the losing party a loss of face that they can come back from.

It was a relatively clear win/loss agreement that most people shared.

I know personally I see virtually NO reason to fight in a war anymore if there isn't a chance of winning some sort of victory OR acknowledging the victor somehow by my defeat.

And I often do not feel safe posting something in the Ab for fear of my words being chewed apart; ergo, I do not feel safe posting.

I think that Common gathering places like the Ab Antiquo do provide a huge benefit to the city, but only if people know what they are getting into when they become involved, and dont feel like that have to pick it up as they go along or follow the lead of others.

And the rules should exist to maintain a certain standard, yes, but also make people feel comfortable enough to play.

I'm having a hard time relating because I don't consider my life a game. Everyone has goals, everyone has struggle, and everyone has the ability to carve out a little bit of something for themselves in the world.

I've fought long and hard to be able to have what I do in this world whether it be resources or relationships, and I honestly couldn't ask for anything more.

That means I win.

Liander wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:59 pm

You have your peace, Ravenblack City. Congratulations. But now that it is within your grasp, do you treasure it as you once the did the idea of it?

(Grammar correction. Come on bro.)

But to the question itself.

Is there a benefit of having common gathering places frequented by diverse groups?

This of course brings to mind the taverns of old, both moderated and not. Of times before we had magical wards preventing those with too low of blood or too few powers from entering. And what a time that was!

There was new blood daily within those bars. Some of value, some less so. There was also an underlying tension to every interaction: there were always eyes upon you, watching and waiting to spread rumor of your deeds or see plots and intrigue in every spoken word. More dramatic times certainly, but I would argue that immortals thrive off of such theater.

We could sit and watch for hours as various groups vied for social domination, a popular name calling in their reinforcements to solidify the tone of the eve only to be dethroned an hour later by someone louder and more charismatic. This was not only fun for its own sake, but it was also productive in two ways.

A simple "yes" would suffice.

End of the day, these private clubs have destroyed any and all real activity that can be noted without public bragging.

As for the idea of peace? There is no such thing as peace in this city. That would require real work, and so far the only thing that's been accomplished in the last few years, is people talking about change. No one has actually done anything to change it except make their own private clubs to continuously support the ever loving divide we share in this city.

More importantly, war breeds activity. People just don't want to put everything on the line to lose anymore, because it's not a principle they stand for like they claim. Like they preach.

It's their own ego, their self forged crowns in their minds that are at stake.

There absolutely is a benefit to having people from different walks to life gathering and - more importantly - conversing in the same space.

Over the past few days, we had Blood Oathing introduce, and while I'm positive it was discussed in other avenues, here on Ab we had the most significant discussion that brought in people from... a lot of different clans, lineages, groups - we had enemies finding common ground (yes, Julia and Narcisssa, looking at you two). And that discussion and exchange of ideas ultimately culminated in a change being made, one that was ultimately for the better, in my opinion.

This exchange of ideas doesn't happen if we let our differences divide us into smaller and smaller groups that don't talk. And I get that speaking up and putting yourself out there can be uncomfortable at times, but it's vital to the growth of our city. It's also vital for personal growth; we do not grow from a place of comfort, we grow by pushing ourselves. That doesn't mean the communal public spaces are always going to be sunshine and rainbows - you will get flak and pushback - but discussion generates activity and interest, and without that, our city dies.