Something's Gotta Give

[Anders]

And I would ask, with all due respect, that you have this conversation privately or elsewhere. This is not the focus of what is trying to be said here.

[Damacus]

It's not a place to pretend you hold the spirit or opinion of it for the sake of public image either. And I'm far from alone in that belief.

[ladypeacek]

Do you know how to tell me and Seyda apart? Just curious.

Again, if you could stop "crying foul" here, I'm sure it would be appreciated. If you feel I, ladypeacek, made up something about you, please come see me and I would be happy to discuss it and work it out.

[Josephine]

It's not a place to pretend you hold the spirit or opinion of it for the sake of public image either. And I'm far from alone in that belief.

Qtf

As, stated before it is easy to say the words and harder to own them. Excuses, after all, run in abundance of why you behaved in such and such fashion. Having had to face hard truths of my own these past six months I can state that accepting responsibility without giving circumstantial excuse is a painful and humbling process.

[Airey]

Well shit. That was actually pretty great. I did have a pretty big revenge fantasy collage going that I don't know what to do with now. It's hard to give up on something you've put so much creativity and time into, but maybe I can recycle it into a 12 month calendar for someone. I think if I draw long hair and a beard on vex I could say he's Jesus and maybe make it a religious calendar...it would certainly make all the blood look normal.

Anyone interested in a 12 month The Passion of vexus calendar? Fie dolla. Firm.

I will take that calendar.
I got 5 on it.

[Ezra]

I have to agree pretty strongly with Airey.

An apology should be for you. It should be because you want to make things right. It should be because it helps your mental health and your healing process to start you on the path to being a better person. It should be because you did the work, or are willing to do the work, to recognize the humanity in another person. If it's solely for the other person's benefit, then it'll always ring insincere. You have to feel it for you for it to be genuine. Just as the other person should accept that apology for them, not for you. Which is why there's plenty of apologies I've yet to make, though I need to, one day. Even if the other person deserves them, I'm not ready yet to let go of that hurt, and I know it'd just be insincere. It's a process every day to let go of past pain one by one, and to try to heal from it. There's no correct path to take, no perfect timeline.

I'm proud of you, Vex and Anders, more than I could ever say. You're the best men I've ever met, and I love you both so much, because I know you made these apologies from a true place in your heart, and not because your hand was forced or for praise -- mine or anyone else's.

[ladypeacek]

I think you guys have misunderstood my point- if you are only apologizing to make yourself feel better- then why would it ring sincere to the person you are apologizing to? Even Vex said it in his original post- don't apologize to make yourself sleep better- you have to follow up with action. It needs to be because you know you are wrong. You know you owe that apology to someone and you intend to change the behaviors that led to that situation. I reiterated what he said- and of course because it came from me, I am 'making excuses' and I am an awful person.

I have zero problem with apologizing if I have been wrong. But yanno, you can't always assume the other person knows they have done something wrong and sit around waiting for them to apologize for it. If you aren't even willing talk to them, it's just as much on your head as theirs, if things never get corrected.

[Ezra]

I think you're the one who misunderstood Dea's original point, Pea, honestly. I didn't read her response at all to mean "I apologized to make myself feel better." You apologize to show remorse, to let go of hurt, and to signify the beginning -- or middle progress -- of changing behavior. Of course, if you say the words just to make yourself feel better without meaning it, that's not a real apology. But that's not what we're saying you should do, in the slightest. I'm not touching on Damacus' comments, just disagreeing with... your disagreement, I suppose? At the crux, I think we might be saying the same thing in different terminology.

[ladypeacek]

Which is why I clarified it was not about Dea, since I don't actually know her- just the words "I did it for myself" was something I'd heard time and time again...I apologized so I would feel better and could move on- without any regard for the person they hurt or real acknowledgement that what they did was wrong, or even any change in their behavior moving forward. I have seen a lot of insincere apologies because it got them in the good graces of someone to fill a need, apologies made through gritted teeth because they were forced to make them. I have seen people apologize for the sake of looking like they were doing the right thing, just to turn around and whisper nasty things to the next person.

If people here actually want to heal? We can't cherry pick who we allow to make amends. You may not be able to forgive xyz for something they did to you, but you do have to allow them space to grow elsewhere. You can't kick them down over and over anytime they try to get back up and make change. At the very least, you have to back away and do your own growing and changing. That is, if you actually care about wanting this city to heal. Clearly, some do not. I'm not saying I am without guilt- mind you- I am just pointing out that this is something we all need to look inside and correct if the city is ever to get right- and not continue to run people off for good. I've reckoned with a few things the past few days myself, so whether any of you care to believe it or not...I get it.

[Seyda]

I've found all four pages of this extremely interesting. I think there are several things about this city that people should remember.

One - Everyone thinks their side is good and the other is evil. Very few people are self-aware enough to know when they are the villain in a situation, and even fewer own it. Just look in this very thread--the VERY FIRST reply there was a dig at me. More than one person rushed to Dea's defense when Pea very specifically stated that it was not directed at her specifically, but that she has heard that very thing from people time and time again. Then you have Damacus continuing to ramble on about things that happened that he wasn't even involved in to try to discredit...Pea or me--I honestly don't think he can tell us apart from "you all." However, crickets from the masses because you think you're "good" and that we are "evil." You pissed all over Vex's entire point, but that doesn't matter, does it? For all of Vex's words about what no one deserves--lambasted for wanting out from leadership--I get this every day. Because of who they love--Pea gets this every day. Shamed for changing the course of their own life to follow their own happiness--every day. I wish that instead of the shitty underhanded comments, someone would just have the balls to say that no one deserves these things...except for Seyda and ladypeacek because they are evil and we are good. I'd have buckets more respect for each of you if you'd just use a little honesty.

Two - There seems to be a tone where people think everyone should just get along and eat marshmallows and sing camp songs together. We live in a city overrun with predatory species surrounded by stores that are stocked to the gills with weaponry. War is a way of life. "Heroes" and "Villains" are ALL necessary for the story that is our lives. Everyone here has their own moral code and principles as well as different upbringings. You do not have to like everyone, and if you did, you'd probably be bored to tears.

Three - Everything in this city cycles around. You can be friends one year, lovers the next, enemies the next, then enemy of the enemy type frenemies the next. How many times have you sat and just had a "I can't believe I'm sitting in this place with this person. I never would have thought I'd be here 5/10/15 years ago" moment?

Four - Vex made a point about trust. I think everyone has people who they can trust implicitly and those they just can't. I think a lot of the issues in the city come from peoples' expectations. I know for me, the only times I've truly been gutted, and it's happened maybe four times in all my years here, is because I expected that I could trust this person and I learned I could not. Change your expectations and you change your outlook.

Five - Regarding actual apologies, sometimes, when you break something, it doesn't matter how sorry you are--it's still broken and it's not going back together the same way it was before. Someone made a comment about how it's less mature to spit on someone than to accept their apology. That comment to me is extremely loaded--just because someone decides to apologize doesn't mean the other person is obligated to do anything with it. It takes an extreme level of maturity to know you're hurt, know you're forever changed, and to just leave it be. Sometimes, a person can forgive another for breaking them, but it doesn't mean they are obligated to like them or have anything to do with them. Sometimes, a person could have been broken, and live their life wondering if someone else is going to end up sitting on the bus seat with them just as broken.

And you also have to bring timing and nuance into it, which I believe was a point also made. Just because you apologize, it doesn't make you less guilty. An apology is not a baptism where you throw your hands in the air and all your sins are wiped clean. That is not how the world works. You (general, not specific) made your apology. Great! That's step one. What are you going to do differently moving forward? You can be an ex-abuser, an ex-murderer, an ex-adulterer or what have you. But you can never ever again be innocent. Or so I've learned in my personal experience of still having people rub my cheating on my wife 5 1/2 years ago, or having my face rubbed in situations I've been involved in that aren't even any of their concerns. But that's okay, because you are all good and Seyda is a villain therefore it's justified.

That's cool, though--I'm self-aware.

But, there is one situation in which I spoke based only on one-sided information that I now doubt is true. For that person, I'll be speaking to them soon.