Journals

[Alex Ayres]

Now to Journal posts. It's different considering I'm not controlling Ravana players CONTENT. I'm not telling him what he can write or what his character can do, I'm asking him as a writer and not his character to avoid placing his writing where people don't want it.
Do I agree with being able to bitch about other chars in a journal? Yes and no. Yes because that's what people do, and no because crossing still happens whether we say it does or not. Maybe what that character has wrote about your character is untrue and other writers read it, and that shapes how their character then interacts with your character. It sucks and it shouldn't happen, but people bitch and lie and moan about people in journals in real life. Characters bitch and lie and moan about other characters.

But that's a completely different issue, all the same.

(I'm not speaking directly to you, Church's player (I'm assuming Church is a character, I've never actually seen him interact), in the below post. Just using the quote as a frame of reference as to what I am talking about. If Church has a journal, I've never read it. This is just a general comment.)

People don't write malicious things in their journals with the intent of having other people read those things and hurt them, and/or shape a third party's point of view of that person with immunity. That bitching and moaning is private, these journals are not.

And the point of role playing, as that is what we all claim we're here to do, is to write a character and forward some sort of plot, be it slice of life, horror, fantasy, sci-fi, action adventure, or a little bit of everything. Slapping an (OOC knowledge only) tag on something and using that as a license to shit all over someone's creation using made up events or conversations does none of those things. It is clearly done with the intent to harm, and an easy way to stop that kind of toxic behavior is to implement a rule (again, common place on most RP sites) that if you want to use another player's character in your writing, you should ask them for permission first. It's common courtesy, as it were.

And aside, if you have a journal and you're knowingly lying about people in it, even though you know they'll never read it because it's your private journal, you're journaling wrong. The only reason you would knowingly lie about someone in your journal was if you intended for someone else to find it and see the lies that you said about someone (Like in the book/movie Gone Girl).

So even if this doesn't become a rule, PSA: If you're going to talk shit about a character in a place they can't defend themselves (a solo RP or a journal) ask the writer's permission first. Again, maybe this should be one of our unspoken rules that are common courtesy. I witnessed first hand how saying mean things can hurt someone, and since then I've watched the toxicity hurt even more real, living, breathing people. Stop fucking Gone Girling people and show some of that growth that was alluded to in the other post.

Second aside, can an admin remove one of Alex's inconsequential posts? Here is a link to one:

[youtube]NY97hbMPtfw[/youtube]

I can't seem to delete my own posts, and this video link is actually worthless at this point and can be removed so he maintains 1000 posts.

If not, it's fine. I think this was worth breaking his achievement for.

[Church]

I think in any writing if someone is mentioning someone elses creation(s) they should probably ask the writer of those creations first whether it's to slander them or not. But at the same time there's nothing stopping characters from talking shit to other's either. We can't police all of it. I also feel that people take the things said about their character too seriously, and too close to heart. No one is slandering your name, here, and I think some people still have problems separating how their character would feel from how they feel. No one is stealing something you've wrote and making it their own, either. [Both things we could definitely step in for.]
At the same time the journals posted here are private in an IC sense, if not an OOC sense, and I think when journals first started up (this isnt the first and only paper to have them, after all) it was with the hopes that the readers wouldn't cross or use anything said in them to shape their opinion of a character - the writer, or any characters mentioned in the posts.
I think general bitching and moaning in journal posts isn't bad enough to warrant it in the rules, but there are more serious things mentioned in some posts that perhaps should be deterred because not everyone is able to seperate themselves from it so easily as others can, but then, that is why we've requested trigger warnings.

But, I don't know. That one might be too complicated for my tired brain to deal with right now.

Also Church ain't the kind of guy to write journals or bitch about mundane things or events in them even if he did so no, you won't find any xD

[Church]

Edited to add some points.

[Greyce]

Each event has 3 truths to it. Yours, theirs, and the unbiased version.
That said, what you're bringing up is treading a thin line between what you consider lies and slander, and what others would call censorship. I think you need to take that into consideration as well. Greyce has, and will continue to, use his journal to voice his opinions that he doesn't want to hold inside himself anymore. He's written some nasty things.
He's also written some sweet things.
Now I don't share those views, but I also don't expect anyone to read his journal. I put it there as a way to log and document what he's writing because Discord doesn't feel like the appropriate place to.

Are you suggesting instead that a forum journal can only have what you consider appropriate in it, Alessio? And where do you draw that line? How do you think it should be policed?

[darkwolf]

If you allow journals, there is no way to police them. Only the person writing the journal post and the people they are writing about know the truth. And like Greyce said, it could be their truth. That being said...

Alessio is also correct. Journals are being used as a way to OOCly lash out at other peoples characters. "Im going to write this in my journal so everyone can see what they are doing." "Im going to write this in there so people think that's what's going on." "I hate this person, so Im going to write a journal entry before they can about XYZ topic." It happens. I unfortunately have listened to people say these things. Some telling lies in the journal, and others telling the truth. It's all to create that separation this city denies is there. Garner people on my side. Let them know my truth(or lies). Not everyone does this. But it is happening. Then other people resort to journals just to tell their side, or start solo RPs so that their truth is heard. These too can be just as false as the journal entries, but I only have experience with the latter.

So in closing, it's happening... There is nothing you can do about it, but be better than the other person.

[Ember]

I think, as a whole, instead of some hardcore policing of the community, we should be working together to make this a place where people can be more comfortable with one another (honestly, this is why I love the OOC only discord, because we just interact as people, not our characters).

To an extent, I get what you're saying Alessio. No, when someone IRL writes in their personal journal, usually nobody is going to read it and find out what is said unless they're a nosy busy body; therefore, your personal thoughts remain just that: personal. But when it comes to roleplay, I would think (and believe and hope) that when a character is "journaling" their thoughts, it is given the same sort of privacy that an actual journal would be given even if we, as HUMAN READERS, happen to read their thoughts. You read a character's thoughts in a book that is written and published, why is it any different here? Because we're actively playing these characters? I don't think that should be a justifiable case for it making a huge difference.

It is obvious that if it being private isn't the case, that in the case that people are letting their characters be swayed by things that are written in what is supposed to be a private journal, then as PEOPLE, they are crossing. Plain and simple. You can't beat around the bush with that one. Mind you, I've read a damn lot of character journals that have slandered people up and down, and I've had my own characters express their distaste for certain other characters in their own journals, but that hasn't swayed me from writing with others that are loathed or in a negative light in people's journals. More often than not, I find my characters being shaped by everything that is written in topical threads, in the interests section with all the games and thoughts, as well as the bindings-severances-bereavements. That is where all the in character action happens, what they see and how they react, especially on AB in particular. To me, the journals have always felt like just a backstory filler, and perhaps that is why I don't ever see them as an issue; I see them as ways for a character to be developed, for their side of the story to make sense and be told, and for me, as a reader, to see it from their view even if my character does/doesn't like them.

Lil has the best point: there are three sides to every story. You're going to get two. One from each character's perspective. What one believes is right and what they believe is wrong. What the other believes is right and what the other believes is wrong. It's hard to get a completely unbiased version (unless you're the magic of the universe and know this shit), because the conversations are not laid out factually and logically unless you have an OOC discussion with the person you're physically writing with; the conversations are written between characters with feelings and emotions, characters who are honest and characters who are with devious intent. Characters lie, cheat, and steal as much as people do, if that's how they're designed. Characters are good with honest intents too, if that's how they are designed.

In this case, I don't believe the journals should be censored or policed at all. I don't really believe that you should have to have permission to write about another character in your journal, especially if your character has interacted with them whether it is in a good or bad light. We don't ask permission to write in our private IRL journals about the people we like or the people we dislike, so why would it be any different here? Because it's readable by others? Again, this just circles around to the idea of crossing being a huge issue. And the only thing I can really say to that is: please, just don't do it. It ruins everyone's fun, and that's what we're all here for. Good times and writing.

Greyce has, and will continue to, use his journal to voice his opinions that he doesn't want to hold inside himself anymore. He's written some nasty things.
He's also written some sweet things.
Now I don't share those views, but I also don't expect anyone to read his journal. I put it there as a way to log and document what he's writing because Discord doesn't feel like the appropriate place to.

ALSO. Lil, I have read Greyce's journal and I think it's amazing.

[A good example of a journal for me is Greyce's, because Greyce doesn't like one of my characters who is in his journal and it wouldn't stop me from role playing with Lil just because Greyce said something about Nessa.]

[Eli Hartley]

I wrote a long winded post and even I got tired because this just boils down to two things: censoring and crossing.

Tex and Lil echoed enough points already here.
You can't censor any work. That isn't just, or fair, or whatever. No one should have to censor their work in any way.
As long as people aren't CROSSING there shouldn't be an issue of what goes on in characters JOURNALS.
Other threads? Yeah. Get permission. Talk that out OOCly. That's the polite and respectful thing to do, and quite frankly, it's just common sense.

JOURNALS? No. Your character (IC) is writing whatever they want, feel, think, etc.
You (OOC) are not.

JOURNALS are OOC knowledge to everyone OOC, unless a writer has allowed someone else to have their character involved with that. They're private unless stated otherwise.
Characters (IC) are allowed to express themselves.
Yeah, that means they'll tell their own side.
You (OOC) don't agree with what's being said IC?
Stop.
Take a step back.
You (OOC) should not be offended at anything IC, even if it's your own character being shat on. That's going to happen no matter what.
Your character (IC) is allowed to write whatever they want in their journals. Truth or Lies. Doesn't matter. It's their (IC) own journal. You (OOC), or your character (IC), can't stop that.

If you (OOC) are intentionally inserting yourself (OOC) into your character's (IC) shoes, then THAT IS CROSSING.
If you (OOC) are reading journals (IC) and inserting those perspectives into your character's head (IC), then THAT IS CROSSING.
Stop.
Take a step back.
What are you doing? What are you gaining from running your (OOC) mouth through your character (IC)?
This is a vampire grid game.
Stop crossing.



TL;DR:
You can't censor a character's (IC) perspective.
You can't censor a person's (OOC) writing.
OOC and IC are not the same thing.
None of our characters are special.
This community needs to stop crossing.

[darkwolf]

Crossing will never end unfortunately. We are all human, and have crossed at some point in this game. Whether you view it as you crossing or not. Mistakes will be made. But if you (OOC) write your character(IC) writing lies in a journal(IC) because you know people (OOC) read your characters journal(IC). That's crossing, and the basis of this whole topic. I'm fairly certain that is why Alessio called for moderation. I agree that we shouldn't censor anyone. But that just means you can't stop people from crossing. No matter how badly you want it. People are going to write hurtful and mean things just to get to the people reading them. Whether its to garner sympathy for their cause, or to blast other people's dirty laundry. Whether leaders want to admit it or not, if they read a journal with someone saying "XYZ told me they were going to kill ABC." or "XYZ is going to pay dearly for what he did." That does not go unnoticed. At that point, it gets taken IC and planned for. Journaling is the new snitching. "I'm mad at you so I am going to write what you said in my journal and hope XYZ reads it."

Ever caught yourself reading a journal and go "OMG I didn't know that!" "He really did that? NOW it makes sense!" Even if subconsciously you start avoiding that person, it's Crossing. Which many people do in this game. Lines are drawn. I know a few people that have drawn lines recently because of what they have read in journals. So again, while it is great to say, we shouldn't do this, it will happen. We are human. Prone to bad judgement calls. Prone to ego, hatred, and resentment for the things we create.

To say it's not happening, and if it is it shouldn't, won't change the fact that it is in fact happening.

[Aziza]

There's no way to prove one way or the other if people are telling lies or not in someone's journal post. It's literally all a matter of perspective. There will never be an unbiased middle-ground when it comes to journaling.

You can't censor people's art and you can't police a character's private thoughts unless you just remove the journal section in its entirety.

And that's not fair to a community of writers, especially ones who perhaps use solos and journals to build up their public writing confidence in order to get to a point they feel comfortable writing with other people in other threads.

[Ember]

No, it won't end.

Yes, we have all done it at some point or another (especially those of us who started out as young, teenage writers. I am not ashamed to admit I was one of those who had a hard time separating emotions once upon a time); however I think many of us have, as we've progressed in the game, outgrown it. If you haven't by this point, you probably shouldn't be writing. If you feel the need to be vindictive as a writer because XYZ happened to your character, you probably shouldn't be writing. If you feel the need to avoid characters with your character because you, as a person, feel slighted, you probably shouldn't be writing.

I have caught myself reading journals and being like "OMG THAT HAPPENED?! WHAT?!", but it's never deterred me from writing with people or characters. Then again, I'm not also involved in a lot of the city politics, so that might have a lot to do with it. I think that's where a lot of the tension lies, where things can get muddy sometimes. It's a shame that crossing happens, yes, but you either have an issue with doing it or you don't cross that line.

Example: Ember doesn't know darkwolf really, not that well. She attended his and Lorr's wedding, so she knows him by proxy of Lorrana, has been to her birthday party at the cottage, seen him at Ezra's munches before, etc. Would that stop me from talking to you, Cody, OOC? No. Would it stop Ember from talking to dw now that his and Lorr's relationship has ended? No, but Ember also won't actively seek him out because she's not close to him at all. Does that mean she's completely closed off from any interaction with him? No, because he's not hurt her directly. Can they become friends? Don't know, unless something brought them together.

There's just varying levels of interactions between people. Have to look at it from multiple perspectives. Some characters have gone through hell together, and regardless of if they're not together anymore, if you have a good relationship with the person OOC, then there really should be no issues. I don't personally have a problem with the community as a whole, or the people in it, whether I know you or not. I am always open to talk, discuss, or otherwise plot whether your character hates mine or not. I don't take it personally.