Journals

[Narcisssa]

Y'know what, Alessio, I have a suggestion. A legitimate one.

If you feel so strongly about this, then you get people to petition for it to be a thing; however, the admins don't have the time to do everything you're asking so why don't you take the responsibility and compile the problems people bring and send it to the admins when they happen? So they can do something about it.

That's the only counter solution I can give beyond pointing to the no crossing rule and lack of people going to the actual admins.

I would sign it. I fully agree with Alessio, having had issues with a certain player myself.

[Grim]

Y'know what, Alessio, I have a suggestion. A legitimate one.

If you feel so strongly about this, then you get people to petition for it to be a thing; however, the admins don't have the time to do everything you're asking so why don't you take the responsibility and compile the problems people bring and send it to the admins when they happen? So they can do something about it.

That's the only counter solution I can give beyond pointing to the no crossing rule and lack of people going to the actual admins.

I would sign it. I fully agree with Alessio, having had issues with a certain player myself.

Okay, good. Well, if people don't start speaking up, no one can do anything to help. And basically what he's asking, in an admins POV, sounds exhausting for the admin themselves if it means going through everything and going to ask everyone. So someone needs to make the step to compile it all and send it, sorted and filed for ease. And if he's truly passionate about this, I would say he do it. Because he knows what it is he's wanting.

That way the people who are crossing get reprimanded for it, with evidence of need to investigate. And the admins actually have a chance when no one is even saying anything.

[Church]

Can't fix a game if no one reports the bugs, guys.

I can't sort things out with a player that's giving you trouble, if you're refusing to report it.

It's that simple. Why are we complicating it?

Put it to a vote if you're that passionate about it, as Keo said.

[Alex Ayres]

Stuff.

You quite literally have nothing better to do with your time, do you? Don't twist my words, Alessio, it's boring and it's not helping your case and you know fine well what I meant by nitpicking. Crossing is already against the rules. Crossing covers every single corner of this topic. It's not even ADVISED that people don't cross, it's explicitly against the rules that people don't cross. Do I need to narrow down the rules for this specifically? No. Crossing is a broader scope and if someone is crossing and using journal posts to upset you come forward. They're crossing. It's against the rules already, we don't need to narrow that down for you.

Now, I've already been amicable and I've done my part in trying to see your viewpoint to which I've offered a viable solution. You just don't agree with it. As always, you want it your way. It doesn't matter to you if a majority of the people in the discussion you made don't agree with your way and I can promise you those writers have had the same thing done to them, too

That's all.

1. I'm watching Sopranos and RPing with two other people while doing this and sometimes playing MTGArena. And I think that expressing how I think that good people are needlessly getting hurt because of the environment that this community as a whole has created is worth a good portion of time. So, while I am doing other things, I don't necessarily think they're better.

2. I'm not even going to go into the crossing thing because we've discussed that at length.


3.

You just don't agree with it. As always, you want it your way. It doesn't matter to you if a majority of the people in the discussion you made don't agree with your way

Anyway, among the people willing to speak openly about this problem, my perspective on it is clearly in the minority. I still hope that people have read this and it maybe changed their perspective on how they interact with others, as I think even in the things that were said that I disagree with, there were good points that were made, like if you're reading a journal and using that information, or letting it influence your perception of a character that's being talked about, you are crossing and are part of the problem, for example.

And maybe people will be more open to talking to someone before writing something about a character, even if it isn't a rule, just as a common courtesy.

Based on the fact that you decided to call what I said "nitpicking" I'm going to guess you're tired of talking about this, and so am I. You've made it clear you don't think it's important that it's a rule. I disagree, I think it should be a rule and once the people in this community can behave like adults, it can be re-evaluated.

I've straight up acknowledged on two occasions that we don't agree on the rule I proposed, and on one occasion said I'm clearly in the minority, and ceded that it obviously will not be made into a rule. So I don't know where you get off saying "as always, I want it my way."

The things I said about the toxicity of the community and the culture of this community that makes it difficult for people to come forward is a separate issue and one that's true regardless of whether or not "have a conversation with someone before making up events that happened to their character" becomes a rule or not. This isn't about my way or not my way. This is about the reality of this forum.

4. I appreciate you being amicable for as long as you were. Thank you for the effort.

They can't monitor you like a child at daycare (and yes, I'm annoyed so I'm snappy but you're presenting everything like a court room case and going into unnecessary definitions of what everyone is saying; which is a very simple thing. Not enough man power for what you're asking.).

If you actually read what I said, I said that enforcing a rule is not monitoring. They are two drastically different things. I went into the definition of one word, nitpicking, so not what everyone was saying, and I did so because something that I put thought into saying was reduced to "nitpicking" when I didn't feel it was "nitpicking" at all. But you also read what I said to Lily as telling her that she should keep her journals she doesn't expect others to read as private, which is clearly not at all what I said. So I don't know if you're actually reading anything I'm saying, or just filtering the words I've said through your own lens, past experiences, etc.

But don't sit there and say the admins don't care. They take the time out of their busy ass lives to do what they can, unpaid. And have been offering viable solutions you keep shooting down as 'not caring'.

I didn't say admins don't care. I said the things that one admin is saying makes it appear to me that the well being of members of this community is not as high a priority as, in my opinion, it should be.

The viable solutions you are saying they provided is in reality one solution. And while they may perceive it as a viable solution, I've already expressed why, in my opinion, it is in fact not a viable solution. I'm also pretty sure it was just one admin, not multiple admins.

So frankly, I just find what you said rude. That is all.

This is where I would be using the "That's just like, your opinion, man" gif from The Big Lebowski, because I don't think anything I've said was rude. I believe it was blunt, but not rude. I think that after a long discussion on an issue that obviously means something to someone and reducing what they said in one of their posts they put time and effort into for other people to "nitpicking" is rude. But just because I believe it to be rude, doesn't mean that Church's player was actively trying to be rude, so I wouldn't let what my perception of what Church's player was saying change the way I would behave or speak to them. Thus I responded in the way that I responded in every other post in this thread. When I'm having a discussion about something that is important to me, I do my best to remove all emotion from my responses, only express what I believe to be true (i.e. the state of this community, how effective just telling people to come forward is, and the tone deaf nature of saying "just come forward" considering the behavior of this community in many OOC situations), and not put my own feelings or biases on what someone else is saying. I take what they are saying at face value and try not to assume they are being rude, have ulterior motives, etc. etc. If this comes across as rude to you still, after my explanation, so be it. I don't apologize.

That is all.

[Greyce]

I think what Tex is trying to get at is that they understand this is a problem and they want to help, but the issue has to be presented to Admin for them to be able to take action. There is too much writing and posting coming in each day for them to be able to read everything, and there's no way that the small Admin team would be able to know what's real or false if they're not involved in the lives of the characters being lied about.

This means that the moderation aspect that you're asking for is incredibly difficult to promise.

If multiple people are having an issue with one person, or a small group of people, they need to speak up. I say this as a manager. They cannot fix a problem that they have not been told is happening. If it's happening from specific individuals to multiple people, then action can be considered or taken. But if you just vaguely hint at it here in this thread- they still can't do anything. Tell them. Or tell a 3rd party you trust to have the conversation for you. There's a wealth of support for people OOC if only you use it.

I"m upset /for/ all of you that this is happening, but I also think you all need to sit down and explain it to someone who can take action so it can be addressed.

[Alex Ayres]

Okay, good. Well, if people don't start speaking up, no one can do anything to help. And basically what he's asking, in an admins POV, sounds exhausting for the admin themselves if it means going through everything and going to ask everyone. So someone needs to make the step to compile it all and send it, sorted and filed for ease. And if he's truly passionate about this, I would say he do it. Because he knows what it is he's wanting.

That way the people who are crossing get reprimanded for it, with evidence of need to investigate. And the admins actually have a chance when no one is even saying anything.

I think what Tex is trying to get at is that they understand this is a problem and they want to help, but the issue has to be presented to Admin for them to be able to take action. There is too much writing and posting coming in each day for them to be able to read everything, and there's no way that the small Admin team would be able to know what's real or false if they're not involved in the lives of the characters being lied about.

Enforcement isn't monitoring.

Even in the "policing" analogy, that isn't how enforcement works in real life. If the law is "marijuana is illegal" police officers aren't knocking on everyone's door and monitoring that no one has marijuana. If they see someone in possession of marijuana, or are notified that someone is smoking marijuana, they then inspect, and enforce the rule.

If it's a rule, then someone who is being victimized by this has something to stand on.

And frankly, if it's not a rule, and someone who is being victimized reads some of the comments in this thread, they are probably less likely to come forward then they already are, seeing as I'm the one coming forward, not them, even though I know for a fact that it happens, and the general attitude towards this issue is "these people need to be less sensitive" "these things happen" and "there's no way to stop this." And also frankly, over the past two years, I've witnessed first hand that some members of the Ab Antiquo staff are not unbiased in the way they treat members of this community, on this forum or otherwise, and I don't think I'm the only person who has noticed it, and that could also be a reason people don't feel comfortable coming forward, the people targeting them could be friends with people on the staff (I'm not saying this is the case, I'm just saying in cases I don't know about, this might be what's happening and why people aren't).


Just to be clear on what I mean by this rule:

-The rule would be something like "If you are going to be writing something negative about a character in an arena (solo RP, journals) where they can not defend themselves, alert and have a conversation with the writer of said character and be able to provide proof that the conversation took place (i.e., screen shots)."

-If someone posts something negative about another character in an arena where the character cannot defend themselves, it would be assumed that the player had the conversation with the other player. If the conversation did not happen, the onus would b eon the player whose character was talked about negatively to come forward and alert staff/admins that there was no conversation.


I think this also gets around the issue of the fact that some people have that relationship where they could talk shit about another player's character and there's already a mutual understanding between those players.

If I wrote a solo RP about Alex suddenly hating Ember for some reason, I know and trust that Flower would know and trust the fact that it was a plot driven thing and it wasn't meant to target her. I would still ask her permission, but I know that I wouldn't have to.


And enforcing this rule isn't very difficult at all,I don't think.Enforcing the rule is receiving a message from Player A: "Hey, Player B had Character X say some shitty things (I am oversimplifying it as saying "shitty things", I've already discussed what I actually mean by "shitty things") about Character Y and didn't discuss it with me first."

You go to player B: "Hey, did you discuss that stuff Character X said about Character Y with Player A first?"
Player B: "No."
You: "Okay, edit it or it will be deleted."

Please let me know what was unclear about that post, and how saying "I'm not saying the rule should be monitoring." and then talking about how the Admin team would actually not have much to do except if someone comes to them saying the person wasn't talked to, ask the other person if they talked to the person and then decide something, made it sound like I was asking the admin team to monitor every post, so that I can clarify it for you.


Honestly, let me write the rule, implement the rule, and the admin team can tell people if someone isn't following the rule to come to me, and then if the admin team needs to delete a post I will go to them and tell them. I will glady do this. I feel like I should clarify this was a joke.



Edited to add the italicized, bold, underlined statement.

[Church]

More stuff

You quite literally have nothing better to do with your time, do you? Don't twist my words, Alessio, it's boring and it's not helping your case and you know fine well what I meant by nitpicking.

I'm stating you have nothing better to do than twist my words.
I'm not stating that you have nothing better to do than try and help the community.
You are, again, twisting my words.
Hello troll.

I know you're trying to help the community, but you make things so ridiculously complicated that it just seems counter productive, in the end.
You write these long winded posts and I suppose that's... admirable? In a way? That you care so much? But you talk so much that what you're trying to say gets lost in it all, and you go back on yourself, and repeat and repeat and repeat. You need to tone it down. State what you want. Agree to disagree. Move on.
And yes, I'm aware you've said you don't agree with it and you've acknowledged you're in the minority, but you still keep going over the same points that I felt you needed reminding that you just don't agree.

I keep changing your quotes to 'Stuff' not to be a dick, but because they're so long and I'm not going to pick at every single thing you're saying.

[Grim]

Alessio. You're not listening to a single thing. You're not an admin, and I don't think you should be with the way you handle your discussions, but if you wish to listen to people who aren't talking then on you go.

If no one comes forwards to the admins about their problems OOC nothing will be done because they don't know. I repeat; nothing can be done. Quote that a few dozen times and read into it. I've offered my solution and opinion. Bold and quote as much as you want, you're over complicating everything and making it sound like a political run for mayor. Which is stressing me out, so with that said, I'm done replying.

[Church]

And enforcing this rule isn't very difficult at all,I don't think.Enforcing the rule is receiving a message from Player A: "Hey, Player B had Character X say some shitty things (I am oversimplifying it as saying "shitty things", I've already discussed what I actually mean by "shitty things") about Character Y and didn't discuss it with me first."

You go to player B: "Hey, did you discuss that stuff Character X said about Character Y with Player A first?"
Player B: "No."
You: "Okay, edit it or it will be deleted."

Except no one does come forward. This is what I'm trying to bloody tell you.
How can I enforce it if no one will tell me about it?
If no one tells me about it, I'd HAVE to go knocking on peoples doors.
Yet you're also saying 'of course people don't want to come forward'
And then you say people coming forward is the solution.
Then you say that asking people to come forward is 'tone deaf'

Can you make up your mind?

[Alex Ayres]

I'm stating you have nothing better to do than twist my words.
I'm not stating that you have nothing better to do than try and help the community.
You are, again, twisting my words.
Hello troll.

It was not clear that you were stating that I have nothing better to do than twist your words. You quoted what I said and removed it all and put "stuff", then your first sentence was "You have nothing better to do, do you?" so I thought you were saying that I have nothing better to do than sit here and post "stuff".

I don't think that necessarily negates anything I said, because I was still doing those things. And I still don't think any of that stuff is better than presenting this issue and having a discussion about it.

And, again, I'm going to make the assumption that accusing me of twisting your words, even though I, once again, was not, and calling me a troll, was not done to be rude. Even though, from my perspective, it's both rude, and seemingly deliberately so at this point. If you would please stop accusing me of twisting your words, I would appreciate it.

I am not trying to be nefarious in anything I am doing, or troll. I am just trying to be as clear and straight forward as possible about my beliefs on this issue.


Thank you.